Originally Posted by Tannhauser

Wow, and they say Conservatives see things in black and white.

Here's your problem, ezra: You don't view people as individuals, but as part of a monolithic group. (This is why your fellow liberals often draw conclusions like black people are too dumb to compete with whites, or that no one can be trusted with guns.)

See, Iraqis are human beings and as such, deserve life, dignity and self determination. That's what we're providing them.
Unfortunately, some people would like to deny them that and do things like blow up markets, kidnap and torture people, and tape kids to chairs and burn them alive in front of their families.
We're helping the Iraqi Security Force protect the public and wipe out the bad people until they can do it themselves.

Make sense?

Originally Posted by Ezra

As a patriot I'm...

Originally Posted by Ezra

You should go to Iraq. Maybe you'll stop sounding like a pompous windbag with no grasp on reality.

Originally Posted by Ezra

What you need to see is that evils are ALSO being committed by Americans. That's what I'd like to see stop. That's what I'm ashamed of.

It makes me misty knowing that you are distraught over each individual Iraqi that dies by the hand of another Iraqi...
While you weep about the Iraqi on Iraqi murders, I'll continue to be more upset about the American made torture, rape, mass murder and general inhumanity. As a patriot I'm more concerned about the evils wrought by my own countrymen.

Originally Posted by Ezra

I can see now why you despise my one million dead figure. You like to be able to imagine individual faces. Do you mourn each rape and murder in Darfur as well? Loads of evil being committed there and not by us.

Originally Posted by Tannhauser

I've volunteered to go twice, what have you done?
My brother, brother in law, and four of my co-workers have all done at least one tour. Do you even know anyone who's served? Or do you get your "grasp on reality" from what's posted on Kos?

Originally Posted by Ezra

You volunteered twice and you are still here? How can that be? The army is so desperate for fodder they are accepting the elderly and the gay.

Originally Posted by Tannhauser

My brother, brother in law, and four of my co-workers have all done at least one tour.

Originally Posted by jizay

If you're a patriot, the word has lost all meaning.

Originally Posted by Ezra

Do they feel we're doing more good than harm?

Originally Posted by Tannhauser

They tell me that any harm we do is in extremely isolated incidents and exagerated by the media. They have all said that the picture the media portrays of Iraq has no resemblance to reality.
The general picture they paint is of long hours, but by and large rewarding work improving the lives of thankful people. There's frustration with the ineptitude that's part of every muslim culture, but the people are grateful for the work and sacrifice our soldiers have put in and their greatest fear is that we'll abandon them.

Originally Posted by Ezra

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5...9t9CgxqcZ1wPNw

More than one million Iraqis dead since 2003 invasion: study

LONDON (AFP) — More than one million Iraqis have died because of the
war in Iraq since the US-led invasion of the country in 2003,
according to a study published Wednesday.

A fifth of Iraqi households lost at least one family member between
March 2003 and August 2007 due to the conflict, said data compiled by
London-based Opinion Research Business (ORB) and its research partner
in Iraq, the Independent Institute for Administration and Civil
Society Studies (IIACSS).

The study based its findings on survey work involving the face-to-face
questioning of 2,414 Iraqi adults aged 18 or above, and the last
complete census in Iraq in 1997, which indicated a total of 4.05
million households.

Respondents were asked how many members of their household, if any,
had died as a result of the violence in the country since 2003, and
not because of natural causes.

"We now estimate that the death toll between March 2003 and August
2007 is likely to have been in the order of 1,033,000," ORB said in a
statement.

The margin of error for the survey was 1.7 percent, making the
estimated range between 946,000 and 1.12 million fatalities.

The highest rate of deaths throughout the country occurred in Baghdad,
where more than 40 percent of households had lost a family member.

According to a July 2007 estimate by the United States, Iraq's
population is around 27 million.

The country has been wracked by conflict since the March 2003 invasion
which deposed dictator Saddam Hussein, with United Nations estimates
putting the number of displaced people from the conflict at more than
four million, nearly half of which have fled to neighbouring
countries.

A small number of those refugees have begun returning to Iraq --
around 20,000 arrived from Syria in December -- the Iraqi Red Crescent
said earlier this month, suggesting an improved security situation.