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01-30-2008, 07:13 PM
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Taliban, Pakistan and Islamic Militants- PBS special
Did anyone see that PBS Frontline show that was on recently?
Frontline: Return of the Taliban It is pretty striking how blatantly Pakistan has been harboring and supporting the Taliban (and al Qaeda?) by allowing them a safe haven in the so-called 'tribal territories' in the mountainous region bordering Afghanistan, YET we continue to give them billions of dollars in aid and call them our allies. What is the deal over there? With all this fear-mongering rhetoric and chest-pounding that Bush and his minions have been doing for the past 4+ years, all the while they KNOW that the real terrorists and most dangerous militant extremists are living comfortably right under the noses of our 'allies' in Pakistan! This excellent episode of Frontline, along with Laurence Wright's excellent book "The Looming Tower" are pretty damning of the Bush administration's abysmal (and perhaps willful?) failure to stamp out the Taliban and al qaeda, when, all the while, they have been hiding out, rebuilding, and raking in funds in their mountain refuge in Pakistan. What is wrong with this picture? Anyone?
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Peace, John My Librarything MySpace My E-Bay World . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture 
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01-30-2008, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Let me ask you this, what do you propose be done in FATA/NWFP? Quote:
I need you to answer a question for me and anyone else viewing this thread. peacemover: A. Did not read Looming Tower. B. Did not garner even the most basic understanding of the contents of Looming Tower. C. Has Looming Tower confused with another book. D. Other (provide details) Thank you.
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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? - Psalm 27:1
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01-30-2008, 10:12 PM
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Well aren't you a snippity, arrogant one, Tannhauser. Yes I did read "The Looming Tower," and the crux of Wright's book is about how bin Laden linked up with tribal Islamic warlords in Afghanistan and Pakistan in the "Federally Administered Tribal Areas" (FATA)/ "Northwest Frontier Province" (NWFP).
That is an extremely volatile and violent region with hardened local militant tribes who who fought and won countless battles up there- including defeating the Soviet army in the 80's, which our nation provided much of the weaponry and training to these fighters to wage. It would seem, however, that bin Laden, several of his other remaining key lieutenants in al Qaeda and a host of radical Muslim leaders aggressively pushing the strict, Wahhabist branch of Islam (including the Taliban), have co-opted this region, and become a contagion in the Muslim world. What to do about it?? How about stop giving the Pakistani dictator Musharraf and his minions billions of dollars in military aid and supplies, M-16s and a host of other weaponry that they are mismanaging and not using to crack down on the radical militants like needs to be done. It would be a huge joke if it were not true! Musharraf is an unstable leader in a region that is already a volatile powderkeg. He dissolved his democratic leadership, imprisoned thousands of lawyers and dissidents who disagree with or protest his policies and authoritarian rule, and he is accomodating, enabling and catering to the heart of Islamic terrorism- by giving them a safe haven right inside his own nation- not to mention how he failed to protect, and may have tacitly allowed (or worse yet been behind) the assasination of Bhutto. Musharraf needs to be brought back in line- first by having his hand taken out of America's piggy bank, along with strong diplomatic terms of accountability being set- not only between America and Pakistan, but also the greater international community. If this does not yield a significant positive change, then economic sanctions, then possibly other options. They have nukes AND they have the key leaders of al Qaeda, on top of having a drastically unstable leadership. THAT is the crux of where the "war on terror," so-called, is stalling out. This is the 800lb gorilla in the room that few people seem to see, much the less talk about. THAT is the connection- the forces behind 9/11, most of the al Qaeda attacks, AND the tyranny of the Taliban are all hiding out in Pakistan- and our leaders know it. Meanwhile, our nation's brave servicemen and women are embroiled in an ill-advised war in Iraq, that basically amounts to going in and destabilizing an entire nation based on completely unfounded, fallacious, fear-mongering claims made by the Bush administration. Enough is enough! Don't SAY you're fighting a "war on terrorism" when you are knowingly allowing a so-called ally, whom you have given billions of dollars and sophisticated weaponry harbor those who are perhaps the most dangerous terrorists in the world. THAT is the issue, and the common thread that ties it all together. So thank YOU! Quote:
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Peace, John My Librarything MySpace My E-Bay World . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture Last edited by peacemover : 01-30-2008 at 10:25 PM.
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01-30-2008, 10:34 PM
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Just to break it down, the book details the roles of OBL, Zawahiri, Prince Bandar and John O'Neil. It begins back in the '50s and ends on 9-11, so any blather about it showing something about the Bush Admin, is a complete fabrication. The part about OBL makes him look like a hopeless retard who was kicked out of Trashcanistan twice because of the ineptness of his "suicide squads" (suicide was REALLY their goal, not taking out any Soviets). It's a pretty long book and you don't seem to get a lot out of reading, so I wouldn't suggest wasting time re-reading it. Quote:
There's the answer to your VERY unecessarily long question.
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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? - Psalm 27:1 Last edited by Tannhauser : 01-31-2008 at 12:52 AM. Reason: html
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01-31-2008, 12:16 AM
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Look, Tannhauser, Did you see the PBS program? That was the original thrust of my post- I thought it was an excellent program that gave pretty convincing evidence of Pakistan's collusion with the Taliban and al Qaeda leaders and tribal warlords.
I mentioned Looming Tower as an example of an excellent perspective on the background of the development of radical Islamic militant movement- which, in part, led up to the present crisis in Pakistan. Looming Tower traced the development of radical Islam back over several decades. O'Neill, of the FBI, did aggressively pursue al Qaeda and their radical militant associates. He connected the dots and knew the seriousness and legitimacy of their threat, as did Clarke and others. The problem was not dealt with by Bill Clinton's administration when he became aware of the threat, despite the fact that he said repeatedly after 9/11 that he wanted to take out bin Laden but did not have "actionable intelligence," etc, etc. 9/11 happened on Mr. Bush's watch, but that is another can of worms- blame is largely irrelevant. The greater point is that arming and training the Muhjahadin in the first place back in the early 80's was a problem, as was the fact that the intelligence community totally missed this growing threat that developed right under their noses, then bit them and the entire nation in the face on Sept 11, 2001. And it most certainly does not end at 9/11. 9/11 was the sentinal event, in the form of a national tragedy that took 4000 civillian lives that brought it to the forefront of American consciousness that militant Islam was and is a far greater threat than most people in the western world ever realized. Your reductionistic A,B,C, D choices are rediculous. bin Laden has been used as the bogey man by the fear mongers in the present administration. The Bushies may have had only minimal culpability in not recognizing and neutralizing the al Qaeda threat, but they certainly used it as their vehicle to plunge America into an unnecessary war in Iraq built on false pretenses and fabrications, or at the very least some creative extrapolations about the supposed WMD capacity of Iraq, AND the supposed Iraq-al Qaeda connection that never was. I mentioned "Looming Tower" for his excellent background and analysis of the development of the radical Islamic militant movement- which set the stage for 9/11, and for the dangerously volatile situation presently in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Quote:
There's the answer to your VERY unecessarily long question.[/quote]
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Peace, John My Librarything MySpace My E-Bay World . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture
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01-31-2008, 01:24 AM
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No I didn't see the program as I very rarely watch television and wouldn't have bothered to comment on your post except that you stated about a book I did read, something that was patently untrue and piqued my ire.
If you'd like to retract the statement that L/T was (are) damning of the Bush Admin, that's fine. Per some of your other points: I'll lay blame to some extent with Bush 41 and more so Clinton for ignoring the growing Islamic threat. The '90's truly were a "vacation from history", but to mitigate Clinton's role, there would have been little public support for a "War on Terror" had he waged it. OTOH, his decision to enter the Balkans War on the side of the al Queda farm team KLA, was easily more disasterous than us arming the muj/N.A. in Afghanistan for no other reason than there was no upside (defeat the Christian Serbs vs. defeat the Soviet Empire). Further KLA trained fighters are a dime a dozen in AQ nests these days. I wouldn't exactly use the word "boogey man" to describe OBL, but his image does far supercede his impact. He's the AQ logo because people like to have a face to recognize. In all actuality Zawahiri or KSM should be the "logo", but it really doesn't matter. Pakistan is a mess and long has been. It's in constant competition with Jordan for the most anti-American country on earth. However, just like Stalin in WWII, Moosh is the best of a field of bad choices. Moosh will do whatever he has to to keep power (and himself alive) and if that includes placating AQ/Taliban/etc. that's what he'll do. Moosh is in a very difficult balancing act, and for the time it's in our best interests to play quid pro quo with him. Yes, he's not going to nuke the FATA/NWFP, but no one on the scene in Pakistan is going to do that. Iraq, on the other hand, most certainly was a state that openly supported, sheltered, and funded terrorism. Saddam was given every chance to bring his nation back to the table of civilized countries and refused to do so. Leaving him in place would have severly handicaped our efforts to protect the lives of Americans and fight the WOT. The argument that Saddam may not "Have the keys to the AQ treehouse" is a facetious one. Abu Abas/PLF, Abu Nidal, Ansar al Islam, Mujahedin-e-Khalq Organization and numerous others (all whom, coincidentally have become seriously incapacitated) operated freely out of Iraq. Certainly, it's demonstrated to the rest of the Nations of the world that there's a serious downside to openly being a terrorist state.
__________________
The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? - Psalm 27:1
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01-31-2008, 04:33 PM
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Well, I still am mystified about what exactly you consider "patently untrue" about anything I wrote about Lawrence Wright's assessment. I guess it was the part about the Bush administration's colossal policy and military mis-steps post 9/11? Well he certainly did suggest as much, as well as the overwhelming failures of the American intelligence organizations, in spite of relentless, valiant, and one might even say heroic efforts of amazing people like John O'Neill.
The vast majority of the book, as you know if you have read it, unpacks the long sordid history of the rise of militant Islam from Qutb and the Wahhabists in the 1950's and 60's on up to the mujahadin, the Islamic Brotherhood, al Qaeda, and the progressively more violent and deadly attacks they have carried out. The point of the documentary is an in-depth report on the present instability in the region and compelling evidence that the mountainous region of northwest Pakistan not only continues to harbor terrorists, radical militants and top al Qaeda leaders, but is also a breeding ground for new terror recruits, as well as what essentially amounts to a money laundering center for funding Islamic militant groups. Musharraf, I believe, is a lot more intelligent and sophisticated than you seem to be giving him credit. The bottom line is that he and his military leadership are knowingly harboring terrorist leaders and doing nothing about it- just giving more lip service and tough talk to the U.S. and western press so he can keep the flow of $$$ and weaponry flowing in. If someone you have a relationship with is supposed to provide a service or support they have pledged and they fail to do it, you stop giving them money and stop believing their idle promises. Sure- it is a volatile and delicate situation and region and we don't want to upset the apple cart and unleash the jihadi floodgate or set off the potential for some sort of nuclear incident or widescale military conflict with the entire Muslim world, but we also should not be coddling two-faced liars like Musharraf. Quote:
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Peace, John My Librarything MySpace My E-Bay World . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture Last edited by peacemover : 01-31-2008 at 04:36 PM.
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01-31-2008, 04:44 PM
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It looks like the American military is beginning, increasingly, to target high-ranking al Qaeda and other militant leaders in northwestern Pakistan using remote-controlled drones loaded up with powerful guided missiles:
Top Al Qaeda Commander Killed in Pakistan That is only a band-aid type strategy and cannot be successful without support on the ground, AND success in turning the tide of public opinion in the region away from supporting these radicals. Otherwise they will just be regarded as martyrs and serve as a recruiting cry to a whole new wave of young militants even more determined to continue to wage and support terror.
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Peace, John My Librarything MySpace My E-Bay World . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture
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01-31-2008, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Point is, he's our best option right now (and, unfortunately, for the forseeable future), and any of the alternatives could REALLY be unfriendly. Imagine one of the real islamo-crazies from ISI taking over the reins and openly arming AQ and their minions with big time tactical or even nuke weapons in an effort to drive us out of Afghanistan. Imagine Pak insanely saber rattling with India, or some of the other Stans, or menacing Israel with threats of nuclear anihilation. We'd be waxing nostalgic for the salad days of the Moosh regeim. I'd recommend a book that I think dovetails well with L/T, and covers a lot of behind the scenes dealings between govts in the first days and years post 9-11. Now, I don't necessarily agree with many of the conclusions, but the author, Friedman, shows a good light on the high stakes chess game that is international relations: America's Secret War~ http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Secre.../dp/0385512457
__________________
The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? - Psalm 27:1
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01-31-2008, 07:41 PM
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Look, like I said, I only read the book and sometimes, folks have a tendency to mix sources in their memories and maybe that's what happened in your first post. And... because some folks, have a tendency to blame Bush for everything, I figured this was another "I got a flat tire and it was Bush's fault" thread.
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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? - Psalm 27:1
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