Chavez (Venezuala) Loses Constitutional Amendment - Page 3 - PhillyBlog

Dave · #21 (**permalink**) 12-05-2007, 11:16 PM

He's also already planning another referendum.

http://www.unionradio.net/Noticias/N...ticiaid=224638

Quote:

"Prepárense, que vendrá nueva ofensiva con la propuesta, esa o transformada o simplificada, pero yo estoy seguro, ya me han llegado cartas del pueblo porque el pueblo sabe que si recogen firmas esa reforma se puede someter a referendo de nuevo en otras condiciones, en otro momento", y le avisó a la oposición: "Yo no cantaría victoria", triunfo que antes de finalizar sus palabras, Chávez calificó con una palabra escatológica y que repitió cuatro veces.

Slightly paraphrased:

Quote:

"Get ready for another offensive on my proposition. Either that or a slightly different and/or simplified version of it. I've been getting letters from the people because the people know that if they gather signatures the reforms can be put to another referendum, under other conditions, at another time. I wouldn't declare victory just yet." A victory that, before he was done, Chavez qualified using an scatological term, which he repeated four times.

Dave · #22 (**permalink**) 12-05-2007, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedisalf

http://www.cne.gov.ve/

I wish they'd list whether or not each person voted. I know of at least one person who didn't vote who I could look up

geoffrobinson · #23 (**permalink**) 12-06-2007, 08:19 PM

Dude, are you saying a leftist dictator wannabe could pull the wool over Jimmy Carter's eyes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedisalf

ok, heres something I found to prove my point.

Go to the Consejo Nacional Electoral, again the Venezuelan office in charge of handling the electoral processes.

http://www.cne.gov.ve/

Now, right in that page, to the right side, on top you'll find a field where you can enter your ID numbers (you can pick V or E, this stands for if youre VENEZUELAN, or FOREIGNER with legal residency, for this just leave it in the default V)

We have an unique ID number, kinda like the drivers license for the US, but its our ID, and its unique, it started several years ago (a long time) and nowadays is around the 22 million or something, for instance I was born in 1976 and my ID number is 13112... (wont show the last 3 digits for privacy reasons), people will get their ID numbers when theyre about 6 to 8 years old.

Ok, now type in this numbers:

V 6842091
V 15912536
V 11041950
V 6995044
V 13697891
V 11488459
V 10074314
V 11836572
V 6979976
V 6056
V 10095173

You will get the following:

-ID number
-Full name
-Voting center's name
-Voting center's address
-state
-county
-city or neighboorhood

Well, on the numbers above, you will notice theyre the same name, ok might be possible, but some of the voting centers are the same....now what are the odds of that?, 2 persons with the same name that vote in the same place (so they live nearby)

Now check this one:

V 19290454
V 18388462

They're the same exact person, voting in the same exact center. Btw, thats a pretty weird unusual name to have, its not like John or Peter or something. they were actually 2 more ID numbers with the same name, but they got fixed

Try this one:

V 10
It shows a person, but with a ID 10 must be more than 100 years old, well, they added in red letters that the person is more than 100 years old, that if any family could contact the CNE to show prove that hes alive or dead.

This is new, wanst there in previous elections, and of course they fixed several low ID numbers

Now, I havent found yet the colombian druglord registered for voting example, it was probably fixed anyways, but heres a link from a mayor internet forum in venezuela, this thread in particular shows slides from a powerpoint presentationwith several examples of same persons voting several times, or other types.

http://www.noticierodigital.com/foru...ht=rep+cedulas

Its in spanish, but you can pretty much look at the amount of suspicious IDs that 1 person found, multiply this for hundreds or even millions, and you know how Chavez has won in the past.

Stills worries me how and why Chavez accepted defeat this time, something happened, or it will. Time will tell.

Mark B. Cohen · #24 (**permalink**) 12-07-2007, 02:13 PM

A broader lesson here is the folly of packaging constitutional amendments. To vote against Chavez, for instance, one had to also vote against a shorter workweek and greater aid to poor Venezuelans. That many people did that is a credit to the intelligence of Venezuela voters.

In Pennsylvania, we in the legislature are often urged to enable a constitutional convention, which could well give people a motley collection of amendments to vote for as a package.

The best strategy for good government, here as in Venezuela, is to insist that any amendment go through the legislative process, and then be voted up or down individually instead of as one of many parts of a package.

raider.adam · #25 (**permalink**) 12-07-2007, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark B. Cohen

A broader lesson here is the folly of packaging constitutional amendments. To vote against Chavez, for instance, one had to also vote against a shorter workweek and grater aid to poor Venezuelans. That many people did that is a credit to the intelligence of Venezuela voters.

In Pennsylvania, we in the legislature are often urged to enable a constitutional convention, which could well give people a motley collection of amendments to vote for as a package.

The best strategy for good government, here as in Venezuela, is to insist that any amendment go through the legislative process, and then be voted up or down individually instead of as one of many parts of a package.

Would you agree the same process should be done for normal legislation as opposed to having several unrelated laws being voted on together?

jedisalf · #26 (**permalink**) 12-07-2007, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geoffrobinson

Dude, are you saying a leftist dictator wannabe could pull the wool over Jimmy Carter's eyes?

All the fraud proof (huge amounts) were all reported to the UN, OEA, carter foundation, you name it.......nothing happened, unfortunately, thats not how the actual world politics works. (money is the key)

EDIT: wait......that was sarcasm, right?

frankdialogue · #27 (**permalink**) 12-07-2007, 03:09 PM

Why all the debate & objection to Hugo Chavez?...he is merely trying to secure the bulk of Venezuela's oil revenue for Venezuela, instead of having it sucked up by multi-national oil companies & banks...he also wants to replace the IMF with a fund/bank that will we better equipped/inclined to deal with South America's economic problems, and without the exhorbinant usury attached to IMF 'loans'...what is the problem with this?...that he wants to persue a foreign policy that doesn't follow the US/Globalist line?...Isn't that the right of a sovereign nation?

eldondre · #28 (**permalink**) 12-07-2007, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankdialogue

Why all the debate & objection to Hugo Chavez?...he is merely trying to secure the bulk of Venezuela's oil revenue for Venezuela, instead of having it sucked up by multi-national oil companies & banks...he also wants to replace the IMF with a fund/bank that will we better equipped/inclined to deal with South America's economic problems, and without the exhorbinant usury attached to IMF 'loans'...what is the problem with this?...that he wants to persue a foreign policy that doesn't follow the US/Globalist line?...Isn't that the right of a sovereign nation?

With all due respect, he wants to replace the IMF with something that will make S American nations indebted to him. you accuse the IMF of usurious ways, btu provide no substance. did the IMF force countries to borrow massive amounts of money and then blow it on themselves and securing votes rather than something that improved the health of the economy (and hence increased ability to pay back the loans)? the IMF, while I'm not necessarily a fan, is often used by bungling leaders as a scapegoat for problems frequently created by themslves. Nobody is saying we shoudl force venezuela to do our bidding but people are saying that he's shown a lack of respect for democratic ideals. Most Latin American leaders make their way by blaming the US (sometimes rightly so, sometimes wrongly so). Chavez has managed to alienate Brazil and Chile, arguably the most important nations in South America...which should say something about how much they trust Hugo.

jedisalf · #29 (**permalink**) 12-07-2007, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankdialogue

Why all the debate & objection to Hugo Chavez?...he is merely trying to secure the bulk of Venezuela's oil revenue for Venezuela, instead of having it sucked up by multi-national oil companies & banks...he also wants to replace the IMF with a fund/bank that will we better equipped/inclined to deal with South America's economic problems, and without the exhorbinant usury attached to IMF 'loans'...what is the problem with this?...that he wants to persue a foreign policy that doesn't follow the US/Globalist line?...Isn't that the right of a sovereign nation?

HAHAHAHAHA........thats funny....sad to know theres people out there that actually believes that, but funny.

While you believe the fairytales histories, this is what really happens any given day in a country like Venezuela:

http://www.eluniversal.com/2007/12/0...n_629246.shtml

Its in spanish, so to make a long story short, here it goes. First in Venezuela "bikers", even though its against the law, ride their bikes in the lanes between cars at highspeeds, in traffic, highways, wherever, and because bikes are cheaper than cars, Venezuela, a poor country has lot of bikes, and I mean a lot!!! (imagine a chaotic china city, but with motorbikes instead of bycicles).

Well, yesterday one of this bikers (most of them are "tough people", if you know what I mean) crashed with a highway police officer, and he fell off the bike but not seriously injured, what happened in Venezuela?, hundreds of bikers came within seconds (told ya theres lots) and starting beating and wanted to kill the officer, more police came and helped him out, main streets closed, riots, they burnt a police truck, they destroyed a police module, cars got stuck in traffic, and they broke their windows robbing everyone, until they went away. Metropolitan Police did nothing, oh yes they did!, they actually arrested a newsreporter who was covering the riots....hehehe...bizarre eh?, well, you know Chavez is against Tv stations and news (the real ones atleast, not the phony ones that you believe) and of course he controls the police, except the police branch that got attacked.

Thats just one regular day in a "sovereign country like Venezuela that wants to do good for their people"....hehe...

Good luck finding "real" statistics, not the goverment ones, if you do, you'll see that poverty and extreme poverty are at all times high in Venezuela, same with unemployment, worst inflation ever, and so on.....while on the other hand oil prices are at record highs (and they've been like that for several years) and the Magnanimous, poor loving Chavez, did the Sovereign thing of controlling the whole oil industry for the sakes of our people.....hehehe....man.

frankdialogue · #30 (**permalink**) 12-07-2007, 04:14 PM

What does this have to do with Chavez's overall policy?...Venezuela is still a poor & fairly chaotic country, and incidents like you describe happen every day, I'm sure...but is Chavez trying to make improvements for his people?...or should we believe what we are fed in the US press, that Chavez is some sort of demon?