What Really Happened in the Middle East - Page 2 - PhillyBlog

KENfmt · #11 (**permalink**) 06-15-2007, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tannhauser

It is also a safe bet that the Arab country (countries) will be the ones to strike first as they have always been the agressors in this conflict.

Well, there's a footnote to that. Specifically the Israeli raid on the Osirak nuclear reactor in Iraq. Not that that was a bad thing...I'm very glad they did. But that was a preemptive military strike on the part of Israel. Of course that didn't kick off wider conflict, mostly because all the other Arab nations were secretly glad they did it as well.

five apples · #12 (**permalink**) 06-15-2007, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jizay

Obviously you have also decided not to address any of the arguments, substituting instead a straw man argument and an implication of racism.

Nowhere has anyone said that Israel doesn't have one iota of blame in the conflict. In almost any conflict, both sides have some blame. However, the claim that Israel is land stolen from Arabs, and further that such theft is the fundamental cause of conflict in the middle east is false as outlined in the link. It is a lie constructed by those who wish to convince us that Israel is not a legitimate nation and thus has no right to defend itself. Many Americans swallow it whole because they have zero knowledge of middle east history, the subject often having no coverage in our public education curriculum.

Again, do you wish to controvert any of the statements I listed in my post, or anything from the link? I will show you how that works by taking issue with one of your points (which was completely off topic). You say "God forbid they try to resolve the border disputes diplomatically." I take "they" to include Israel, which is odd since they seem to be the only side that tries diplomacy. At least, it is clear that their enemies eschew diplomacy, so what good what it do? The Gaza and Lebanon treaties were almost immediately broken when Israel was attacked by rockets. Hezbollah leader Nasrallah says:

"The Jews are a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment."
"There is no solution to the conflict except with the disappearance of Israel."

And of course there is Hamas' charter, which calls for the eradication of Israel:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

And as you well know, the entire conflict began after the UN declared Israel would have a state comprised of 10% of the original Palestine Mandate, and 60% of that 10% was desert, and 5 Arab nations attacked Israel in an all fronts war in an effort to eradicate it.

How do you take facts such as these and conclude that Israel abandons diplomacy? And how do you suggest that Israel practice diplomacy when its enemies declare that the only solution is to destroy it?

You really think that pointing out that 1300 years ago the fact that there were no arabs in israel, by the way palestinians are not arabs, makes it ok that when israel occupied the west bank in 1948 they forced 100,000s of Palestenians to leave the homes they lived in? I am sorry but that is not an adequate answer.

Syria has repeatedly approached Israel this year in an attempt to start negotiations over the Golan Heights. Israel has rebuffed them every time. The reason sadly enough seems to be because George Bush doesn't want the Israelis talking to the Syrians because he wants them isolated. Israel will do what ever bush wants at this point because they know how sensitive their situation is today.

Because Arabs treat the Palestenians poorly, and they do, doesn't make what the Israelis do ok. Also, there are problems with Palestenians in other countries, hence the battle going on between Lebanon's security forces and a Palestenian terrorist group these last few weeks. Also, PLO and Jordanian forces fought each other after the last war between Israel and Jordan. The PLO basically took control off the area bordering Israel and King Hussein sent in the tanks.

But i would say the real reason that the Palestinians hate the Jews is because of the manner of life they are forced to live. Unable to travel from town to town, forced to live in poverty, constantly bombed and attacked. Israel might do this to preserve their own security, but every time an innocent bystander gets killed, every time another palestinian suffers through the humiliation of going through a check point the hatred grow and grows and grows. Israels one and only hope is a diplomatic one, otherwise one day they will find themselves in a battle they can't win.

Also, yes the Palestenians share blame, lots and lots of blame. Suicide bombers, firing kazam rockets and so on is unacceptable and will never bring them peace. But blind support of Israel hurts Israels future more then anything.

jizay · #13 (**permalink**) 06-15-2007, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aubin

by the way palestinians are not arabs

Thank you for revealing to everyone your grasp of the situation. The people who everyone refers to as Palestinian and who are in conflict with Israel are Arab, they speak Arabic, their historical claim to the area is that they are the Arab group who inhabited Palestine before Britsh rule. Also, Israel didn't occupy the west bank in 1948, Jordan won it from Israel.

Please cite clear evidence of a Syrian attempt to negotiate and an Israeli rebuff and I would be happy to discuss it if you really want to discuss it. But:

You are continuing to try and prove that Israel has a role in the conflict, and I don't disagree with you. I'll repeat one more time: Do you or anyone wish to controvert the points I made in my original post (other than your false refutation above) or the points made in the link? I am only interested in establishing that Israel is a legitimate nation with a right to existence and self-defense and that it is not a land grab from rightful Arab owners.

jizay · #14 (**permalink**) 06-15-2007, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aubin

makes it ok that when israel occupied the west bank in 1948 they forced 100,000s of Palestenians to leave the homes they lived in?

Sorry for not responding to this statement. It's a naked, propagandistic distortion that is partly dealt with in the link. It appears you didn't watch it, yet feel perfectly dignified in responding anyway.

KENfmt · #15 (**permalink**) 06-15-2007, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aubin

You really think that pointing out that 1300 years ago the fact that there were no arabs in israel, by the way palestinians are not arabs, makes it ok that when israel occupied the west bank in 1948 they forced 100,000s of Palestenians to leave the homes they lived in?

Palestinians are Arabs. In fact, there were Jewish Palestinians as well. At the time of the British Mandate of Palestine all people of that area were termed Palestinians, which were Arabs, Jews, Christians and others. Only after the creation of Israel did the jews of the area stop referring to themselves as Palestinians and took on the term Israelis. It's a nationalistic identity, not a race or culture.

jizay · #16 (**permalink**) 06-15-2007, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KENfmt

Palestinians are Arabs. In fact, there were Jewish Palestinians as well. At the time of the British Mandate of Palestine all people of that area were termed Palestinians, which were Arabs, Jews, Christians and others. Only after the creation of Israel did the jews of the area stop referring to themselves as Palestinians and took on the term Israelis. It's a nationalistic identity, not a race or culture.

Indeed, but people who merely lived in the mandate don't usually refer to themselves as Palestinians. The group now that fights with Israel are Arabs that make a bogus claim that they have a lineage to the area that predates/invalidates others'.

vincent59 · #17 (**permalink**) 06-15-2007, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jizay

Thank you for revealing to everyone your grasp of the situation. The people who everyone refers to as Palestinian and who are in conflict with Israel are Arab, they speak Arabic, their historical claim to the area is that they are the Arab group who inhabited Palestine before Britsh rule.

Just to be clear are you saying there were no Palestinians in this area before the 7th century or are you saying there were no Arabs.

The original origin of the Palestinians seems to be from different parts of Greece. The Greek historian Herodotus called the Mediterranean coast the Philistine Syria. This was well before the 7th century, although this may be your point that they were not Arab.

Tannhauser · #18 (**permalink**) 06-15-2007, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aubin

You really think that pointing out that 1300 years ago the fact that there were no arabs in israel, by the way palestinians are not arabs

You know, you're wrong about most things, but this is SO wrong, that you really ought to duck out of this thread with the few scraps of dignity you have left.

#19 (**permalink**) 06-15-2007, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jizay

An informative video presentation:

http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened

Should be required viewing for those who mindlessly repeat the line that Israel is land stolen from Arabs.

Here are some chestnuts:

There were no Arabs in Palestine until the Muslim invasions of the 7th century. In the nearly 1300 years that followed, the Arabs made no attempt to create an independent Palestinian state. But, they did not want the Jews who were living in the Middle East to form a Jewish state.
Today, the Arabs who live in Israel have more rights than Arabs living in any Arab country.
After the 1948 Arab war against Israel, 850,000 Jews were forced to flee Arab countries in which they had lived for thousands of years. No one talks about these refugees. Because Israel re-settled them. Today, Jews are persona non grata in Arab states, but Arabs have full citizenship rights in Israel. Sometimes the present is a guide to the past.
If the Palestinians only want a state of their own, why is there no Intifada in Jordan where Palestinians are a majority of the population? In fact, after the failed 1948 war against Israel, Jordan annexed the West Bank and Egypt annexed Gaza. But when the Palestine Liberation Organization was founded 15 years later in 1964 it did not call for the liberation of the West Bank from Jordan or the Gaza Strip from Egypt. Instead, the Palestinians called for the "liquidation of the Zionist presence" - the destruction of Israel.

I'll defend Israel because it's a western style country, which is a good foot in the door in barbarian land. If we could add Iraq that would be even better. That's all I'm concerned about.

However, your argument is incorrect:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/742430.stm

There is no difference between Arabs and Jews. They're just factions of the same type of human that's lived there since pre-history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars

Khazars = Ashkenazi

These are people from either Eastern Europe and/or Eurasia who converted to Judaism for various reasons. That accounts for people like actor Kirk Douglas who is fair haired and eyed and bears nothing of a mideastern look.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_Douglas

Meanwhile, Paula Abdul is from Arabic genetic stock, and looks it. Her dad's from an Arabic-Jewish country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Abdul

So, many Jews living in Israel weren't ever from the mideast at any time in history. Since many Jews that started Israel were more likely Eastern European that actual Arab/Jews, such as this famous man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Dayan

it's safe to conclude that there could be very little claim to the area at all.

Imagine if suddenly several hundred million Chinese decided that they were Jews and moved to Israel. How would that be received, and what effect would it have on the current crop who think themselves Jews?

Israel:

Israel is much like what some religious people thought about America when it first started, and still today. That's the idea that god gave "us" America and that we deserve to live here, because we deserve to live here, which is just self-referential logic.

There's nothing that we can do about that nonsense now. We can't move out of America, and the Jews can't move out of Israel because there's too much structure in place. These places just Are, with a capital A. Although Israel exists, it was a massive mistake and will continue to be a subject of war and chaos until one side gets destroyed; there's no sign that says otherwise.

The west will destroy their enemies with capitalism and consumer culture, while the Islam will chop your heads off and make you into slaves. That's why we need to help Israel, and for no other reason.

jizay · #20 (**permalink**) 06-16-2007, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vincent59

Just to be clear are you saying there were no Palestinians in this area before the 7th century or are you saying there were no Arabs.

The original origin of the Palestinians seems to be from different parts of Greece. The Greek historian Herodotus called the Mediterranean coast the Philistine Syria. This was well before the 7th century, although this may be your point that they were not Arab.

I am saying the area was conquered around the 7th century by Muslim Arabs. There were no Muslims before then. In all of the time since, no one tried to create a Palestinian state (artificial name) in the area we came to call Palestine.