When is Bush going to realize that Iraq doesn't know how to be a free and democratic system? It is not built into their culture. They don't wish to live as we do (most of them anyway). The violence against us and the coalition is not stopping. These people do not understand. It is so sad and frustrating. Now more innocent people are captured. Their resistance is so widespread. How is this going to end? Bush is happy with the progress! :what_is_:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...raq/index.html

Wow, somebody else who realizes this.

Why do most Americans find it so hard to fathom that not everyone in the world is madly envious of our way of life?

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../19/do1902.xml

Really a first-rate article all around, but a few quotes:


The idea that Iraqis or Middle Easterners in general can't live in a democratic system or don't understand how is, by the way, very racist. I know you didn't intend it to come out that way, but it's as racist as any of the British Colonialists or Apartheid supporters, all of whom would have made very similar sounding arguments.

tmcgee

It could also be argued that assuming they all (or even a majority) want to and it's the best thing for them is supremacist.

It's to the Iraqi's credit that things are as calm as they are now. Hopefully they will emerge from this with a political system that works for them, whether that's American style "democracy" or something else. It all depends on how our leaders handle the situation there.

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Excellent article, it is always interesting to me to see how differently Europe reports it's news. :clapping:
The Sunni Triangle encorporates the headquarters of Iraq, don't you think? The largest populations live there. The other 2/3 of the country are sparcely populated by comparison and are inhabited by different sects doing their own thing.
I was just reading in Time that our efforts in forming and training a Iraqi militia and police force is being foiled because we are training and equal number of terrorists that are using this as another vessel to get to us. Why are we recruting from the people around the triangle as opposed to the burbs that are already "on board" with our system? Possibly because these people do not want to really be involved? I believe that the terrorists in Iraq will never surrender to us because to them it is a religious war not political. It's their perception of good against evil. By doing what they do they are securing a place in heaven. Where will it end, when we kill them all? What about Afganistan? We are in over our head and we have lost a lot of support from our allies. I almost want to vote for Bush because he should need to be responsible for cleaning up his own mess for once. That's my rant for now..... :explode:

Yo, tmcgee, if you think that Iraq is such a fantastic place, I'll buy the plane ticket for you to go over there.

I think you picking on Dave by calling him a racist is pretty lame. It's a nice tactic to distract from the real argument since you know you can't stick to the actual facts (just look at all the opinion pieces you use to "back" up your arguments).

Over a 1,000 troops have died, nearly 30 this week, and I could care less if it happened on one block in Bagdad or across the whole friggin country. Lost lives are lost lives. When is that country going to be stable enough for us to pull out? When is the end game? When do we win?

Nothing from Bush on this...he doesn't have a clue.

-D

Troll. And you've degenerated so quickly, too!


:sleepy:

I actually was replying to the original poster, not you. Nonetheless, I stand by what I said: the notion that Middle Easterners can't live in a democracy because somehow the wallah's don't understand the benefits of Western culture and therefore need to be paternalistically handled is, whether one realizes it or not, a racist notion.

There was an Iraqi government in exile, and pressures for an independent, democratic Kurdistan well before the Iraq war. Where on earth did anyone get the notion that the Iraqis "wanted" Hussein? Who wants torture and rapes?

tmcgee

In another post, we discussed whether mercenaries are to be considered innocent people. I feel sorry for the Westerners captured, but I'm sure their pay compensated for the risk of being there.

Mercenaries are not a new concept. Crying over every one of them b/c our media has its eyes and ears everywhere is new, however.

And I stand by my assertion that it's flawed thinking to assume that somebody from another culture sees any benefits at all to western culture and, if they do, that they find those benefits reason enough to adopt it.
I do agree that it probably constitutes an underestimation of the Iraqis' global awareness to think that they don't at least somewhat understand how we live on this side of the pond. However, I don't consider the notion racist. Would I be commiting racism against my own kind if I said that I don't understand Iraqi culture because I've never lived there and don't personally know anyone who has, nor have I ever watched Iraqi television nor do I speak their language? If anything, I would guess that people in Iraq probably understand our culture better than we understand theirs.

You shouldn't judge a country based on its exiles. If they left the country, it was probably for a reason.

The idea that every Iraqi lived in constant fear of being raped and/or tortured by the government is ludicrous. I imagine most people were safe as long as they went about their business and didn't speak out against the government... at least they weren't in significantly more danger than Americans who, in contrast, tend to live in fear of being raped, mugged, assaulted, etc by some stranger on the street who may even feel entitled to do so by virtue of living in "the freest country in the world." Is it any better when the perpetrator is a stranger on the street rather than a government agent?

Somebody may now come up with figures of how many Iraqi's were raped or tortured by their government but, until then, the above is my take on the issue.

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