Hmmm, it's working in Sudan.

Seriously, Saddam was the lowest, vilest human scum imaginable. But is Kim Jong Il any better? Let's make two lists: the mass murderers our government has overthrown, and murderers our government has supported. Which list is longer?

What do you mean "we're still way better"? Yes, Bush is better than Saddam. But for most Iraqis, is life today better than it was before March 2003? I'm sure you saw the study that shows that mortality in Iraq is much higher since the invasion. According to the Washington Post, the study "estimates that 655,000 more people have died in Iraq since coalition forces arrived in March 2003 than would have died if the invasion had not occurred." Could Saddam kill that 200,000 people per year?

More from the WaPo:

It's interesting to speculate on what Iraq would look like if Cheney, Rumsfeld and the Vulcans hadn't messed up the occupation, but we can't do any more than speculate.

I don't take any joy in Bush's failure. I really wish this occupation had succeeded. I really wanted to be proven wrong in my belief, in 2003, that the invasion was a bad idea. But, tragically, it was.

El,

Who controls the oil of the world...(in relation to us)

Hence our desire to control them

As for "trading"...we traded lots of stuff for oil...mostly weapons.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/a...rming_iraq.php
http://www.sundayherald.com/27572


Now the countries we gave those weapons to...Iran and Iraq over different times... don't like us and Iran regularly threatens to cut supplies in order to maintain the nuke factory..


So basically...we are attempting to fix the mess we made..





http://www1.eere.energy.gov/biomass/national_energ y_security.html


U.S. Oil Imports

To keep up with America's ever-increasing demand for oil, the United States has steadily increased its dependence on foreign oil since 1985. In 1993, total imports as a share of petroleum products supplied broke the 50% mark for the first time. Today total imports of 11.5 million barrels per day comprise 58.2% of petroleum products supplied (EIA Monthly Energy Review December 2001, Table 1.8).
The statistics above are based on gross imports and ignore U.S. exports of petroleum. Net imports, which take into account U.S. exports of petroleum, give a better indication of the big picture—the fraction of oil consumed that could not have been supplied by domestic sources. In 2000, net imports totaled 10.4 million barrels per day, or 53% of petroleum products supplied. Net imports are projected to increase to 16.6 million barrels per day, or 62% of petroleum supplied by 2020 (EIA Annual Energy Outlook 2002, Figure 80 and Table 15).
America's heavy reliance on imported oil jeopardizes our nation's energy, economic, and environmental security, particularly in the transportation sector. In the current situation, the United States has little control over oil supply disruptions and oil price fluctuations. The necessity of maintaining a stable supply of imported oil imposes foreign policy constraints, and in times of crisis, forces the U.S. military into action. See U.S. Military and Oil.
Back to Top
Depletion of U.S. Oil Reserves

Declining U.S. oil reserves and falling domestic production from aging oil fields are key factors in America's increasing dependence on foreign imports. In addition, America has already developed the bulk of its known and easily accessible low-cost deposits. The following statistics from EIA clearly summarize the problem:

• U.S. proven oil reserves have declined by an estimated 16.3 billion barrels from 39.0 billion barrels in 1970 to 22.7 billion barrels at the end of 2002 (EIA U.S. Crude Oil, Natural Gas, and Natural Gas Liquids Reserves 2002 Annual Report, Table 6 (PDF 126 KB)). This less than 2% of the world's known oil reserves (EIA International Energy Outlook 2003, Table 11).
• Domestic oil production has been steadily declining since 1970. U.S. petroleum production is expected to decrease slightly from 9.2 million barrels per day in 2002 to 8.6 million barrels per day by 2025, but oil consumption in the United States is expected to rise from 19.6 million barrels per day in 2002 to 28.3 million barrels per day in 2025, a 44% increase (EIA Annual Energy Outlook 2004, Figure 99 (PDF 126 KB)).

The combination of dwindling U.S. oil reserves and increasing oil demand make it impossible for the United States to significantly improve energy security by using more domestic petroleum, even if the United States were to tap every remaining oil deposit in America. That would just delay the inevitable; and the United States would still have to reduce its use of petroleum products and turn to alternative transportation fuel sources such as biofuels in order to gain a secure energy future.
Back to Top
U.S. Vulnerability to Oil Supply Disruptions

While there is no question that the United States is increasingly dependent on foreign oil, the level of oil dependence doesn't really give a full indication of how vulnerable the United States is to an oil supply disruption. If the U.S. oil supply came from many small producers, and one of them suddenly stopped exporting oil, then the impact on oil supply and prices would be small, even at a high level of dependence. However, this is not the case; today, four major producers provide over nearly 70% of the U.S. oil supply: Canada, Mexico, Venezuela, and the Persian Gulf region (Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates).

• Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela, combined, supplied over 45% of the oil supplied to the United States in 2002 (EIA's Petroleum Supply Annual 2002 (PDF 22 KB), Volume 1, Table 21). Trade agreements with Canada and Mexico, and the proximity of these sources should make their supplies less vulnerable to disruptions.
• In 2002, the Persian Gulf supplied nearly 20% of U.S. imported petroleum (EIA Annual Energy Review 2002 (PDF 15 KB), Table 5.4). This region will continue to increase its influence in world oil markets, as oil supplies in other regions are exhausted, because over half the world's known oil reserves are concentrated in the Persian Gulf (EIA International Energy Outlook 2003).

The United States first experienced oil supply disruptions from the Persian Gulf region in the 1970s, when two sudden and sharp oil price hikes rocked the American economy. Since then, additional disruptions in oil supply, such as those occurring during the 1979 Iranian revolution and the 1990 invasion of Kuwait by Iraq, reinforce the need to reduce America's dependence on Middle Eastern oil. See Oil Supply Disruptions and the Economy.
The ability of the United States to offset a major oil supply disruption has improved little since the 1970s. Several factors are contributing to America's increasing vulnerability.

• By 2025, oil and oil production facilities will be concentrated in the Asia/Pacific region (EIA Annual Energy Outlook 2003, Figure 101). At these levels, a supply disruption from this one region would have an immediate impact on oil supplies and prices worldwide.
• The U.S. government's emergency supply of crude oil, the strategic petroleum reserve (SPR) , provides less protection from an oil supply disruption than in previous years, because of America's increasing demand for oil. The maximum days of inventory protection peaked at 118 days in 1985; it currently down to 53 days.
• About 61% of the increase in petroleum demand over the next two decades will be met by an increase in production by members of OPEC rather than by non-OPEC suppliers. By 2025, OPEC production is expected to be more than 25 million barrels per day higher than it was in 2001 (EIA International Energy Outlook 2003, Figure 37).
• Although these factors are all indicators of America's vulnerability, there is no real way to estimate the probability of disruption. In the near term, greater diversity of oil import sources can reduce America's vulnerability to oil supply disruptions. In the long term, promoting energy efficiency and producing and using fuels from renewable, domestic biomass resources—particularly in the transportation sector—will ease our dependence on foreign oil imports and improve our nation's energy security. In addition to its direct displacement of imported oil, biofuels production and use creates the infrastructure to respond to future oil supply disruptions. The greater the percentage of transportation fuel coming from biofuels, the more quickly the industry will be able to increase production if needed to meet an emergency situation.

__________________
"

El,

Who controls the oil of the world...(in relation to us)

Hence our desire to control them

As for "trading"...we traded lots of stuff for oil...mostly weapons.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/a...rming_iraq.php
http://www.sundayherald.com/27572


Now the countries we gave those weapons to...Iran and Iraq over different times... don't like us and Iran regularly threatens to cut supplies in order to maintain the nuke factory..


So basically...we are attempting to fix the mess we made..while securing oil for the future...instead of allowing unfriendly countries to dictate US economics...which they could by manipulating oil production.

Dived and conquer...

Being nice to the Middle East...and they will pay us back for perceived grievances from recent history (Gulf War) to historical (Crusades, etc)


We either kiss an oil countries' ass (Saudi Arabia) or keep them isolated (Venezuela and Iran, Iraq, etc)





http://www1.eere.energy.gov/biomass/national_energ y_security.html


U.S. Oil Imports

To keep up with America's ever-increasing demand for oil, the United States has steadily increased its dependence on foreign oil since 1985. In 1993, total imports as a share of petroleum products supplied broke the 50% mark for the first time. Today total imports of 11.5 million barrels per day comprise 58.2% of petroleum products supplied (EIA Monthly Energy Review December 2001, Table 1.8).
The statistics above are based on gross imports and ignore U.S. exports of petroleum. Net imports, which take into account U.S. exports of petroleum, give a better indication of the big picture—the fraction of oil consumed that could not have been supplied by domestic sources. In 2000, net imports totaled 10.4 million barrels per day, or 53% of petroleum products supplied. Net imports are projected to increase to 16.6 million barrels per day, or 62% of petroleum supplied by 2020 (EIA Annual Energy Outlook 2002, Figure 80 and Table 15).
America's heavy reliance on imported oil jeopardizes our nation's energy, economic, and environmental security, particularly in the transportation sector. In the current situation, the United States has little control over oil supply disruptions and oil price fluctuations. The necessity of maintaining a stable supply of imported oil imposes foreign policy constraints, and in times of crisis, forces the U.S. military into action. See U.S. Military and Oil.
Back to Top
Depletion of U.S. Oil Reserves

Declining U.S. oil reserves and falling domestic production from aging oil fields are key factors in America's increasing dependence on foreign imports. In addition, America has already developed the bulk of its known and easily accessible low-cost deposits. The following statistics from EIA clearly summarize the problem:

• U.S. proven oil reserves have declined by an estimated 16.3 billion barrels from 39.0 billion barrels in 1970 to 22.7 billion barrels at the end of 2002 (EIA U.S. Crude Oil, Natural Gas, and Natural Gas Liquids Reserves 2002 Annual Report, Table 6 (PDF 126 KB)). This less than 2% of the world's known oil reserves (EIA International Energy Outlook 2003, Table 11).
• Domestic oil production has been steadily declining since 1970. U.S. petroleum production is expected to decrease slightly from 9.2 million barrels per day in 2002 to 8.6 million barrels per day by 2025, but oil consumption in the United States is expected to rise from 19.6 million barrels per day in 2002 to 28.3 million barrels per day in 2025, a 44% increase (EIA Annual Energy Outlook 2004, Figure 99 (PDF 126 KB)).

The combination of dwindling U.S. oil reserves and increasing oil demand make it impossible for the United States to significantly improve energy security by using more domestic petroleum, even if the United States were to tap every remaining oil deposit in America. That would just delay the inevitable; and the United States would still have to reduce its use of petroleum products and turn to alternative transportation fuel sources such as biofuels in order to gain a secure energy future.
Back to Top
U.S. Vulnerability to Oil Supply Disruptions

While there is no question that the United States is increasingly dependent on foreign oil, the level of oil dependence doesn't really give a full indication of how vulnerable the United States is to an oil supply disruption. If the U.S. oil supply came from many small producers, and one of them suddenly stopped exporting oil, then the impact on oil supply and prices would be small, even at a high level of dependence. However, this is not the case; today, four major producers provide over nearly 70% of the U.S. oil supply: Canada, Mexico, Venezuela, and the Persian Gulf region (Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates).

• Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela, combined, supplied over 45% of the oil supplied to the United States in 2002 (EIA's Petroleum Supply Annual 2002 (PDF 22 KB), Volume 1, Table 21). Trade agreements with Canada and Mexico, and the proximity of these sources should make their supplies less vulnerable to disruptions.
• In 2002, the Persian Gulf supplied nearly 20% of U.S. imported petroleum (EIA Annual Energy Review 2002 (PDF 15 KB), Table 5.4). This region will continue to increase its influence in world oil markets, as oil supplies in other regions are exhausted, because over half the world's known oil reserves are concentrated in the Persian Gulf (EIA International Energy Outlook 2003).

The United States first experienced oil supply disruptions from the Persian Gulf region in the 1970s, when two sudden and sharp oil price hikes rocked the American economy. Since then, additional disruptions in oil supply, such as those occurring during the 1979 Iranian revolution and the 1990 invasion of Kuwait by Iraq, reinforce the need to reduce America's dependence on Middle Eastern oil. See Oil Supply Disruptions and the Economy.
The ability of the United States to offset a major oil supply disruption has improved little since the 1970s. Several factors are contributing to America's increasing vulnerability.

• By 2025, oil and oil production facilities will be concentrated in the Asia/Pacific region (EIA Annual Energy Outlook 2003, Figure 101). At these levels, a supply disruption from this one region would have an immediate impact on oil supplies and prices worldwide.
• The U.S. government's emergency supply of crude oil, the strategic petroleum reserve (SPR) , provides less protection from an oil supply disruption than in previous years, because of America's increasing demand for oil. The maximum days of inventory protection peaked at 118 days in 1985; it currently down to 53 days.
• About 61% of the increase in petroleum demand over the next two decades will be met by an increase in production by members of OPEC rather than by non-OPEC suppliers. By 2025, OPEC production is expected to be more than 25 million barrels per day higher than it was in 2001 (EIA International Energy Outlook 2003, Figure 37).
• Although these factors are all indicators of America's vulnerability, there is no real way to estimate the probability of disruption. In the near term, greater diversity of oil import sources can reduce America's vulnerability to oil supply disruptions. In the long term, promoting energy efficiency and producing and using fuels from renewable, domestic biomass resources—particularly in the transportation sector—will ease our dependence on foreign oil imports and improve our nation's energy security. In addition to its direct displacement of imported oil, biofuels production and use creates the infrastructure to respond to future oil supply disruptions. The greater the percentage of transportation fuel coming from biofuels, the more quickly the industry will be able to increase production if needed to meet an emergency situation.

__________________
"

There's even more to it than just us. Imagine for a moment that we had no need for oil, but the rest of the industrialized world still does of course. Imagine what would happen to us and our economy if, even if our economy needed no oil, the global supply of oil were disrupted. It would hurt, and hurt bad. But that's not nearly reality. In reality a major sudden disruption would decimate our economy to the point of what I believe would be widespread caos and eventual anarchy.

We are as dependant on oil, if not more, as any industrialized nation. Any blip in supply and the global market reacts. So even if we don't get any oil from a particular oil producing nation, disruption of supply anywhere in the world affects the global market for oil, of which we are but one buyer. Even if most of our oil comes from Canada, the Gulf, Alaska and Mexico, oil sellers are not us. They are private companies and foreign governments. If ME oil disappeared, all industrialized nations would be bidding for and likely fighting over what's left. Including oil drilled here.

We have to kick the oil habit and develop technology so the rest of the world can do the same. Then we can leave the ME to its own devices or whatever.

We would still fail.

__________________
"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people".

I didn't mention the top 1%, I just said we went there for perceived US national interests. I do think that Bush figured a stable democracy in the middle of the region would go a long way toward improving things in that region, but I am astounded that he was so delusional as to think it could happen this way. Is the administration really this uninformed on 1400 years of history there? What made them think that an election would all of a sudden make them adherents to the rule of law, free markets, freedom of religion private property etc. Without widespread acceptance of those concepts, a "democratic" election will not produce a result favorable to the US. It's likely to produce a government as bad or worse than Saddam's. Or just total chaos, as we can all see.

They let the Palestinians vote and they voted for Hamas.

Some cultures can't be democratic...or not democratic overnight.

Look at our "Wild West" ...mostly organized crime posing as "elected" for the first century..

It's happening in Russia now... they are in the "corruption" "organized crime" phase..

we are advanced enough we call the "organized crime" corporations...

Because you can arrest criminals but a company is protected by the law.

__________________
"

Sadaam should die and burn in hell.


Sadaam gased a 1/4 of a million of his own people.
Let me repeat that, Sadaam Hussien mass executed 250,000 of his own people. Sadam Hussien gased 1/4 million human beings.

Ok? He should die and burn in hell. Hitler killed 6million people and we went in there and took him out. We did the same with Sadaam.

Both those monsters are gonna burn in hell forever.

Sure, except that:

Hitler killed 13 million. Mao killed upwards of 60 mm, and I recall Stalin was good for 30 or 40 mm. I don't recall how many are on Kim Il Sun's hands but I think it's 7 figures also.

BTW, our annual collateral damage is pretty close to Sadams' TOTAL.

Not that I disagree, but that's a very simplistic view. Unless of course you believe Truman should have been executed for Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Not to mention all of the presidents culpable in the killing of millions of native Americans.