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07-31-2008, 11:32 PM
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Abortion, Reproductive Rights & Pro-Life- spiritual perspectives
What is your perspective on abortion, birth control and reproductive rights from your religio-spiritual perspective? Please be respectful and courteous.
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Peace, John My eBay World My Librarything MySpace . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture Last edited by peacemover : 07-31-2008 at 11:34 PM. 
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08-01-2008, 12:09 AM
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One book that addresses this topic and about a half dozen other 'hot potato issues' faith communities are wrestling with these days from a Christian perspective is:
Confronting the Controversies, by Adam Hamilton- a Methodist pastor. Hamilton addresses both sides of the each issue thoughtfully- here are a few excerpts as possible grist for dialogue (p 100ff): Quote:
Hamiliton then looks at another side of the issue: Quote:
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Peace, John My eBay World My Librarything MySpace . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture
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08-01-2008, 12:22 AM
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Abortion is a topic that only women have the ability to properly discuss. Men by their nature are biased.
Civil governments and religious institutions were all male dominated. Placing women in submissive roles so they could control them in all social situations. They were no better than chattel, good for cleaning house, cooking and sex. Impregnation was the result and women were brainwashed into believing they must carry this seed. Women with courage found the means to end the cycle and eventually persuaded men they had the right to make this most basic decision by themselves. It is reported 50 million in the U.S. alone had abortions. These were not all from the poverty stricken areas of the country. They came from all walks of life, the lower, middle and upper-class of society. Housewives, mothers, rape victims, factory workers, lawyers, accountants, doctors, social workers. Some may want to end the practice and they shout murder as their banner-cry, but is it more humane to let the unwanted be born and cast aside to live in hunger, doubt, contempt, struggling from meal to meal. Boys and girls who exist without hope. Who learn to live on the streets like those in Brazil until they are old enough to sell their bodies for sustenance and in turn they get pregnant and perpetuate the cycle. Abortion may chaff the sensibilities of some but tell the children and pre-teen girls of Rhwanda that god said they should bear the children of their rapists, so that they in turn may be raped. Every person who proclaims for abortion should adopt these unwanted. Clean the streets of the orphans. They need not look to foreign soil there are plenty right here in america. Take them into their homes. Raise them with love and care, feed and clothe individuals, have them schooled and educated to become wholesome productive citizens. Then when all of our own orphans have been adopted; stretch out to the neighboring countries, Canada, Mexico, Central American, South America, Africa, the Asian countries, etc. One child at a time, one country at a time. When they have done this and realize the multitude of this task then ask them about abortion. See how enlightened they will have become.
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08-01-2008, 12:48 AM
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Again, very interesting. I do believe it is safe to say that human society has been male dominated for much of history. Perhaps you could expand more on the 'only women being able to properly discuss [abortion]" part. If both men and women are necessary for the reproductive process, why would you say that only women have the ability to properly discuss it?
I realize that conception and pregnancy obviously occur within a woman's body, and are deeply personal. On the other hand, though, it is literally a matter of life or death for that baby in the womb- thus, in the minds of many, taking it beyond just it being solely a matter of that woman having say about her own body and making it a societal concern. About the 50 million- figures I have seen place it more in the low 40 millions, but either way it is still quite a staggering number of abortions that have been done in the United States in the 35 or so years since Roe v. Wade. The latter part of your argument, interestingly, Jim Wallis picks up on in his chapter on the topic in God's Politics (p 299f): Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Peace, John My eBay World My Librarything MySpace . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture Last edited by peacemover : 08-01-2008 at 01:02 AM.
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08-01-2008, 02:14 AM
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I am pro-choice, but not pro-abortion. I think it's a choice of last resort, but I think only the woman carrying the pregnancy knows what's best. I think any legal obstacles to first trimester abortions mean that cases of rape, incest, etc., would never be proven in time to have an early abortion, so it must remain legal and we must trust women, their doctors, their pastors and their counselors to handle these issues. At the same time, we must provide resources to help single mothers who wish to keep their babies and make adoption possible for more people so that all options remain open for women in this situation. I am VERY opposed to protesting outside women's clinics because it may make women who have no insurance less likely to access medical care, whether it is abortion related or not. Acceptance and openness will help reduce the number of abortions -- not fear. People who condemn women who have chosen abortion must explore how complex the issue is and they would be better off helping young mothers than shouting outside clinics/bombing clinics/killing doctors who might be performing necessary procedures.
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08-01-2008, 08:49 AM
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Blueroses, the latter part of your statement, I think, is where historically the American healthcare system and social services has "dropped the ball," so to speak- on providing supportive services to pregnant women- agreed.
As to the first part of your statement- I agree about the part of exceptions for cases of rape, incest, etc- but those sorts of cases are, I would dare to speculate, only a very small percentage of the total number of abortions performed in America- presently on the order of 1-2 million as I understand it. The vast majority are "elective"- albeit, perhaps a choice of last resort (or perceived last resort) for many women. I am sure there are also many women who have abortions- not totally of their own volition, but due to pressure from a boyfriend, or ashamed parents, etc. Then there are the cases in which abortion is not viewed as a last resort, and the pregnancy is otherwise healthy, but the woman views it as an acceptable form of birth control- perhaps to take care of what she considers an 'oops' due to unprotected sex. There may well be other cases where a woman decides in a moment of haste after an argument, perhaps, with boyfriend or even spouse to go and get an abortion unbeknownst to that boyfriend or spouse. It is and has always been a complicated and controversial issue. Yet it is obviously an important one because of the number of lives at stake. Another side of the coin is also the burgeoning world population- now well over 6 billion people globally, and more than 360 million here in the United States. China, and I believe one or two other Asian countries have instituted a one child policy. Many world health authorities would argue that the food shortages in developing nations are at least partially attributable to overpopulation. This raises the question of birth control- to a number of faith groups, birth control is also considered verboten (i.e. Roman Catholics, etc). This would seem to leave a lot of people to fall through the cracks would it not? Quote:
__________________
Peace, John My eBay World My Librarything MySpace . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture
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08-01-2008, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
And, I object to the inflammatory words "baby in the womb" there are no babies in wombs there are embryos or fetuses. I don't think your or anyone else's god has any part is making laws. If a woman doesn't think it's compatiable with her religious beliefs, then she shouldn't have an abortion. If she wants one, what you believe your god does or does not want has no bearing on the subject.
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08-01-2008, 03:35 PM
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Sycamore - I agree with you it is a woman's decision. I neither applaud nor condemn that choice, either way I support her. If she bears the child, whatever the future brings she will be the one who does the rearing, no matter how well intentioned her male partner
Peacemover - you stated life or death of the child IMO you should have included life or death of the mother for every time a woman gives birth she puts her life in jeopardy. Politicians will always waffle on the issue. They didn't pass Roe v. Wade. It was a Supreme Court decision. To them it will always be an issue that generates publicity. Expecting pro-choice and pro-lifers to agree is asking night and day to exist simultaneously. The lifers profess to speak for a deity they say is all-knowing , all-seeing and omni-present. Their god must have no voice so they take it upon themselves in their religious zeal to proclaim what they think this god wants. Their individual religious beliefs will not let them compromise. The pro-choicers have centuries of abused, worn, tired, browbeaten, savagely butchered women throughout history as their role models. Having this knowledge prohibits them from giving quarter in any way. The quandary of an irresistible force meeting an immovable object The Reasons for abortion; rape. incest, medically incapable of carrying to full term. a woman's fear of the possibility of complications or death, poverty which doesn't mean just the low-income but also the family that can't afford the financial burden of having a child, a family unit that already has two or more children and for whatever reasons decides they have enough children, underage pregnancy resulting from peer pressure to have sex, parental guidance or mis-guidance whichever one chooses, pressure from the male partner to end the pregnancy. are what I come up with. If you have more feel free to add them to the list. I would like to add that in my discussions with today's generation of young men it has been opined that unmarried fathers-to-be should have a say in the decision, as society more so today, holds them responsible, at the very least to contribute to the financial support of any child.
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08-01-2008, 05:06 PM
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My own wife had to have a pregnancy ended because of a life-threatening ectopic or tubal pregnancy- so I know a little bit about this issue from personal experience, okay? This is a woman's decision regarding her health and that of the fetus, but it is far from a simple or uncomplicated decision.
She had a first trimester pregnancy that occurred in her fallopian tube that had to be terminated because if it were allowed to develop it would have ruptured her fallopian tube and she would most likely have bled to death. We agonized over this but doctor after doctor said that the chance the fetus would develop normally were almost nil, and the likelihood that her fallopian tube would rupture causing her to bleed out and die were very great. This was absolutely one of the toughest, most devastating experiences of either of our lives. We desperately wanted this fetus to develop into and be born as a healthy baby, but it was not to be. Thankfully we later had a beautiful, healthy daughter who is now almost 8 years old. Okay 'Fetuses' most of which will be born as babies if allowed to properly develop- my error. To play devil's advocate for a moment, I think the point that many of the pro-life folks try to make is that a fetus is the beginnings of a human life- not merely a fetus, mass, growth, tumor collection of cells, etc. The normal development of that life needs to be violently ended in order for it to not develop into a baby. As I stated previously I personally am not for forcing anything or outlawing abortions- far from it- this is and needs to remain a protected right of a woman to choose regarding her own body. I do think that the root causes that lead women to feel that abortion is their only option need to be addressed. 40 some million abortions in the United States alone is a pretty staggering number, wouldn't you say? Also, I personally know and have spoken at length with friends who have deeply agonized over this decision- a few who decided to abort the pregnancy and a few who decided to have the baby- either as a single person or with the knowledge that the fetus may well be born with some sort of congenital defect. What I see though, is that rather than substantively address the root causes that lead to the million or so elective abortions each and every year in the United States alone, there is a dehumanization that occurs on both sides- many people who are ardently pro-life seem to de-humanize the women who are struggling with these agonizing decisions and those who support them; on the side of the ardently pro-choice, there is a tendency to insist that a) it is not a topic suitable for public square discussion (even among people who struggle with the moral basis for abortion without questioning whether it should be legal or not) and b) control the language used to refer to the developing life within the womb so as to not allow others to describe it in any way that would somehow humanize it. Both sides of this spectrum concern, puzzle and sadden me. Would you not agree that finding substantive ways to dramatically reduce the abortion rate in the United States would be a good thing? That is the other puzzlement- the camps are so deeply entrenched that both sides insist on all-or-nothing in their particular direction. These are peoples' lives at stake here. Each individual case obviously involves a deeply personal decision- that is between the women, her doctor and hopefully her significant other, but it is a greater societal issue that warrants respectful, public square dialogue, I believe. Quote:
__________________
Peace, John My eBay World My Librarything MySpace . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture Last edited by peacemover : 08-13-2008 at 08:10 PM.
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