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07-21-2008, 12:41 AM
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Again we're back to the dilemma of humankind being granted full autonomy and ability to make choices (including evil and/or immoral/unhealthy choices).
One of the great human questions, indeed. Quote:
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Peace, John My eBay World My Librarything MySpace . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture 
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07-21-2008, 03:47 AM
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Did you already hash this out on the blog? My first time with this particular question. Actually I just read it in a book by a Czech novelist. Seems to him that it's premeditated torture on the part of God. He chose to make Man flawed. He chose to test man continuously. The rules of the game are set so that Man should suffer physically and emotionally and spiritually before getting the rewards that only God can offer. God could have chosen to make Man perfect and ready for entrance into the Kingdom but He chose not to... leaving Man with free will and endless suffering.
I'd love to hear the Churches rationalizations for this. And no fair using trite phrases like "God's ways are not our own or God is mysterious..." that's a cop out.
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07-21-2008, 05:45 AM
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07-21-2008, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
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07-24-2008, 08:38 AM
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God made Man but He didn't make Man flawed? What? Man was neutral to begin with and chose to piss off the Creator of All? He's omniscient. So He knew what Man would do with free will. They would fail to live up to his standards. To the non believer this sounds crazy and like premeditated torture. I'm still waiting for my eyes to be opened as to how this is Love.
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07-24-2008, 10:33 PM
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Frank, your response sounds condescending to me as I read it- perhaps this is very different from how you intended it. Each person's approach to questions of ultimate meaning, suffering, and faith are unique, deeply personal, and diverse. None of us is the sole possessor of truth, so therefore, I think we are all well advised to approach such matters and sincere questions with deep humility and an openness to discerning truth.
Quote:
__________________
Peace, John My eBay World My Librarything MySpace . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture
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07-24-2008, 10:51 PM
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The loudest religious voices that people remember are the harsh, hypocritical leaders who lack integrity and authenticity. One of the most bittersweet quotes that I take to heart is when Gandhi was quoted as saying: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." The words 'fundamentalists' or even 'religious people' could easily be substituted in place of 'Christians' in that quote, I think. I know I often fall short of being the person I believe I am meant to be- but each day is a new day, and there are plenty of times when I do sense that God is at work in my life and my relationships with others. I think to anyone who has had a negative experience with religious people- particularly as a younger person or a child, it is a wound that does not seem to heal (or at least heal easily) for most people. From what I have heard in his interviews, etc, I suspect this may have been the case with Carlin- strict, harsh, cold Catholic upbringing at the hands of people who, in his mind lacked authenticity, caring, and genuineness. Instead I get the sense he felt condemned, berated, chastised and perhaps mentally and verbally abused him as has happened to many others. This deeply saddens me, but also reminds me of the vital importance of making a difference in the lives of others through caring relationships rather than rigid dogma or a set of doctrines. Doctrines don't change lives- radically caring, altruistic relationships and ways of living can and do, I believe.
__________________
Peace, John My eBay World My Librarything MySpace . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture Last edited by peacemover : 07-25-2008 at 02:29 AM.
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07-24-2008, 10:55 PM
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The loudest religious voices that many people remember are the harsh, hypocritical leaders who lack integrity and authenticity. One of the most bittersweet quotes that I take to heart is when Gandhi was quoted as saying: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." The words 'fundamentalists' or even 'religious people' could easily be substituted in place of 'Christians' in that quote, I think. I know I often fall short of being the person I believe I am meant to be- but each day is a new day, and there are plenty of times when I do sense that God is at work in my life and my relationships with others. I think to anyone who has had a negative experience with religious people- particularly as a younger person or a child, it is a wound that does not seem to heal (or at least heal easily) for most people. From what I have heard in his interviews, etc, I suspect this may have been the case with Carlin- strict, harsh, cold Catholic upbringing at the hands of people who, in his experience at least, lacked authenticity, caring, and genuineness and instead condemned, berated, chastised and perhaps mentally and verbally abused him as has happened to many others. There was no genuine caring relationship- only "spooky language," a stern "invisible man" and a "burning place full of torture and anguish."... "but he LOVES you and he NEEDS MONEY..." That type of shallow "religion" is a BS story to me too... In addition- that sort of behavior fails to even meet the very definition of religion- as a set of beliefs that "brings together" rather than ostracize people; "unites" around common beliefs (like the Golden Rule for instance) rather than dividing people over petty differences. No transforming & caring relationships = empty religion, which does = BS This deeply saddens me, but also reminds me of the vital importance of making a difference in the lives of others through caring relationships rather than rigid dogma or a set of doctrines. Doctrines don't change lives- radically caring, altruistic relationships and ways of living can and do, I believe.
__________________
Peace, John My eBay World My Librarything MySpace . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture Last edited by peacemover : 07-24-2008 at 11:03 PM.
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07-31-2008, 09:20 AM
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New question... this comes from read Humbers tracts.... regarding Noah's Flood. I don't know geology but I do know that many cultures have a Flood story... so I don't have a problem with there being a global flood and it being written up as the Ark story.
My question is... since the polar icecaps are melting at an accelerated rate ... right now... it's conceivable that we will have a global flood again in our lifetime. Aside from the wingnuts who will blame this on gayness... will Christians in general see the work of God in a modern day global flood?
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