But you admit that there is no difference in my way or your way. With a God or without one. Prayer is for the pray-er, not the prayee.

No no no. That's the point of the amputee thing. Someone recovers in a way a doctor never expected means it was beyond what the doctor expected. Period. A miracle is when someones limb grows back. We're only a couple hundred years out from shamen and barbers as surgeons. Our medical knowledge is still primitive.

My first stop and think about a personal miracle was when I got my first 100% on a test in elementary school. I had indeed prayed for it. I wanted it very badly. I got it. I suspected the hand of God at the time. What do you think? Something that had never happened before, something I thought flat out impossible... sounds miraculous to me. I even started a conversation with God in my mind because of the blessed event.

Good one. I myself am working towards moving out of my current position and focus more on education and sustainability in the next phase of my adult life.

Yes and no for me. Personally, I believe, and I would say this is a fairly broadly held belief among people of faith on all ends of the spectrum- prayer changes me, not God- yes; however I am changed, in part through acknowledgment that there is a greater power at work in my life, in the world and throughout the universe.

I would disagree that healing can only be described as a "miracle" when something unnatural like a limb growing back occurs, which obviously was chosen in this case in an effort by this group as a sort of straw-man attempt to try to illustrate how patently absurd even the idea of a miracle being possible must be. Well, that is the essence of the miraculous is it not? What had been thought impossible became possible in a way that forever changed and transformed lives.

Again, we get into the realm beyond the provable, quantifiable and scientific. Is it possible to PROVE that miracles occur? Perhaps not to the satisfaction of the most strident cynics, atheists and anti-supernaturalists, but, rather, I believe for that very reason, miracles are seemingly fortuitous events that defy our human ability to prove or comprehend, yet through one's faith is strengthened and lives changed for the better- which one can look back upon and see it as a turning point or an otherwise unexplainable moment of providence.

Again, that understanding of the miraculous would seem to be contingent upon somehow manipulating or changing the mind of an interventionist/superhero-or-villain god. Plus, although getting a 100% on an elementary school test may seem big at the time, it probably would not qualify as a major life-changing event or case of providence. Also, forgive me if I am off base here- it just seems a little wryly facetious rather than truly illustrative.

That is part of what I really respect about what I have seen of your posts here, Ezra. You have a wry, skeptical, questioning cynicism, but there is a very deep well of optimism and hope there that shines through every once in a while.

Personally I think that inherent goodness along with a spiritual yearning and belief that there is "something more" than human knowledge to give meaning to one's life.

As your apt analogy about the medical profession- coming from priests and shamans and theories of bodily humors to clinical medicine within a few hundred years shows how far off current human "knowledge" can be- regardless of how popular or widely held it is even within the scholarly communities of the day.

Spiritual truth, because it runs deeper than (and I believe always exceeds) human knowledge is always relevant and transcends the finitude of our human condition... if that makes any sense...

At the end of the day, it is not about theology or metaphysics, but who did I help today?

For me as a person seeking to be a follower of Christ, I take very seriously the words that Jesus is quoted as saying in the parable of the sheep and the goats in the 25th chapter of Matthew's Gospel:
That puts it all in perspective for me- our works do not save us, but as a person of faith I feel compelled to want to help others every chance I get. Do I do this enough or at every opportunity or at all the times I can or should? Of course not. Tomorrow, though, I can strive to do a little better than before. And some days I know and can tell myself- "today you did good, kid- you were there for someone who really needed help and made a difference."

It sounds like a cliche- but it really is true if one believes it- "every day is a new day"- filled with new opportunities for love, growth and foolishly abundant generosity- oh yes- and miracles.

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John

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If only more Christians were like you, John. We would have different leaders and a different and far better world.

The first A+ anecdote was a serious turning point. It was at a time when I was trying to figure out for myself if the God of Abraham existed. By praying for a perfect grade, I was testing the Almighty to see if He was there. What I discovered was that hard work and focused goals have a real effect while wishful askance of the ether does not. Instead of walking towards the Lord, I took a huge leap away. And never looked back.

You might find my fascination with faith as a sign of "seeking". But it's not. I have no urge to find some greater meaning in life. I like living in the here and now. I fear dying but not death. I feel with utter certainty that there is no afterlife, although I wouldn't be opposed to be reincarnated. What fascinates me is the faithful. You are like mimes. Sometimes annoying but if you are really solid in your faith sometimes you can almost see the invisible in your life. You know what a bad mime looks like.... thats what most of the "faithful" look like.

You come across as a really good egg, John. Is that because of your faith? If you lost your faith today, would you be a different person tomorrow? Maybe I would be a better person if I believed in something greater. Would you be a worse person if you didn't?

Thank you. I am flawed and imperfect in many ways, but, like us all, there are moments when light shines through, hopefully.

I agree with you on the "wishful askance" part- I think that is one of the deepest misunderstandings many people (including many people of faith) have about prayer. Prayer, for me, is seeking harmony with the creative force that is greater than I, and which I believe is the cosmic purpose, Higher Power, if you will, that is the force that gives ultimate meaning to our existence. Whether one calls this higher power, G-d, the divine, or by another name- that is who and what it is to me.

That is understandable. A lot of people turn away under those circumstances. I would invite you, though, as a perceptual alternative to reconsider/explore/investigate what the greater purpose(s) is/are in human activity and life in the universe. Surely you believe there is more to all this than some cosmic big bang and pure chance.

I take you at your word, Ezra, but aren't we ALL seeking and trying to somehow make better sense of our purpose and meaning in life- even if it is in the now?

By the way, one of my favorite books on theology is called The Eternal Now, by existential progressive theologian Paul Tillich. Another one from a meditation perspective draws on the same here-and-now theme and is called Wherever You go, There You Are, by Jon Kabat Zinn (great book with little vignettes on mindfulness, relaxation and meditation- from an eastern perspective).

An analogy that a dear friend and mentor whom I deeply respect once told me was that, when we are truly living our faith, we are like transparent windows, through which others can hopefully catch a glimpse of the Holy One shining through. The rest of the time it is our humanity and personality that is seen by others- and sometimes it is some combination of the two.

The way I like to describe it is that feeling one gets when speaking to someone who has a deep centeredness and sense of peace about them- even in the midst of stressful surroundings and events. That is the light of faith shining through that spiritual window I described, if that makes any sense. You see that, at different points, in the sayings, actions and writings of people like Gandhi or King, for instance- or other great faith leaders and teachers- a spiritual presence that points to something (or someone greater) than this world.

These are good questions, Ezra. I am no saint, by any means- just ask my wife and my co-workers (ha!). I do seek to live with integrity and cultivate a space of inner peace within my spirit- regardless of what may be happening all around me.

I have struggled with doubt at a number of points in my life- I battled serious illness in my late teens and found myself questioning the existence of God or any higher spiritual power. Still, I continued my journey- one step at a time, and that sense of centeredness and presence of that higher power in my life returned, and was more strongly present than before.

I think I definitely would be a worse person if I didn't have faith- because, in part, during that dark time, I did turn away...

and I began to feel restless, empty and unsatisfied with my life.

If we live only for ourselves, then we lack a sense of greater purpose, I think.

It is hard to explain because I had a very life-changing experience through my illness. There was a time of great darkness, loneliness and feeling of abandonment, but gradually I believe the Holy One began to speak to me- through others in my life- through events that I could only describe as providential and what I believed, and still believe to be God's guidance.

I received another chance at life and life more abundant than I could have imagined- with a deep well of peace and joy.

That, to me, feels like a miracle- not in a selfish "hey, look at me and how good I have it" sense- but rather a deep, abiding gratefulness for what I believe God is doing in my life- and a strong desire to seek to share that peace and joy with as many people as I can reach out to in this life.

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John

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My friend's suffering glorifies God in a number of ways. The rest of the church helps him on a frequent basis, showing the compassion and care that God has placed in our hearts for one another.

For any struggle, we learn dependance on God which glorifies God, who uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

But I'm sure there are numerous other ways we won't know while we're alive.

Geoff, if that individual who is enduring/has endured the suffering comes to the conclusion that their suffering glorifies God- I respect that and honor it.

What I have more of an issue is when OTHERS try to tell a person who is suffering that it is meant to bring glory to God, that suffering is a blessing, along with all the other cliches and platitudes that insensitive (but perhaps well-intentioned) people say sometimes to those who are suffering.

I think the first thing we are called to do as people of faith encountering the suffering is to listen compassionately and attend to their emotional struggle rather than dispense advice or trite spiritual adages (i.e. suggesting that somehow their "suffering glorifies God"). Again, if THEY "go there" then that is an invitation for us to affirm that in them.

Otherwise I think we risk becoming like Job's friends. Although even Job's friends had the wisdom at first to at least be present with Job without saying much. Job's friends started to do more harm than good to Job when the first one started shooting his mouth off about how Job didn't have it that bad and basically should just suck it up and consider himself blessed to which Job replied:

Sometimes, perhaps, the miracle may be the selfless compassion offered by one human being caring for another in need. After all, that is so rare and seemingly counterintuitive to our human nature is it not?

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John

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Well, there is truth to what you say. At the same time, Scripture speaks on the subject of God's purposes for suffering (for believers). "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing."

You bring up Job. Now, Job's suffering was real. But God's purposes were real too. And they weren't accessible to Job. That needs to be kept in mind.

There isn't an either-or situation here. And this is why it is important to build a theology prior to going through inevitable trials.

I don't think saying "God has no purpose in this" would be a great thing to say either.

Affirming original sin?

Geoff,

I think we agree that there is much comfort and hope to be found for believers and people of faith experiencing suffering- what I was asserting was that each person needs to find that for themselves rather than one who is not in that place or experiencing that suffering trying to tell them that they should count it a blessing.

The whole building a theology in advance thing is all well and good- however I think one needs to be sure that it is, indeed, built on God and not on our own intellectual ideas or selective literal interpretation of scripture.

Also, while, perhaps it would not be good to say "God has no purpose in this," I DO believe there is a time to affirm raising difficult questions and even getting angry at God- this occurs throughout the Psalms, and time after time the response is God affirming God's presence in the midst of the suffering and bringing comfort to the afflicted one.

About original sin (which I believe is largely an Augustinian imposition on scripture after the fact)- I don't think offering altruistic compassion to someone who is suffering has anything to do with original sin. Compassion is often counterintuitive to our nature, because, deep in the reptilian brain, or instinctive drives lead us to act selfishly rather than selflessly on most occasions- that is just how we are hardwired.

Altruism and grace are the exceptions rather than the rules in human existence- yet they are imperative in the care God calls us to extend to one another (i.e. Golden Rule and Great Commandment). That is what I was getting at there, Geoff...

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John

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Sounds like a pointless circle to me. A person of faith suffers because God wants them to have more faith.

I also think you catch more flies with honey. Why doesn't it suffice to have rainbows and kitten sneezes to attest to the Lord's presence in your every day life.

Why is it that people who suffer are the most faithful? The imprisoned, those in a foxhole... That's a rhetorical but feel free to respond.

How does the suffering and death of 3 million victims (annually) of Gods creation, the mosquito, Glorify the Lord?

I know from personal experience how suffering promotes the desire to glorify... I'm a lifelong agnostic turned atheist yet when I went through my second bout with kidney stones I prayed to everyone from Jesus to Santa Clause to end the pain.

Suffering creates the primal need for faith. The human mind recoils at the thought that suffering is meaningless. So meaning is invented.

Lack of suffering leads to a lack of need for "something greater" or a "grand design" to exist.

You need to accept that suffering just happens. If there is a reason to be found it's in that it helps you to appreciate non-suffering more. Just like someone in Philly appreciates a beautiful day more than someone in Los Angeles. Suffering makes you stronger if it doesn't kill you, right? That's another reason. Suffering because God wants you to believe in him more? That's not a reason, that's a justification.

And even more you need to accept that good things happen to you because you deserve it. After a f'ed up childhood I went to the dark side but eventually I put aside alcohol and drugs and a very dangerous lifestyle on my own. Took many years but I did it. Now I have love in my life and a clear mind and body. I did it. Me. I own this. Every morning I can wake up and instead of saying "God has granted me this wonderful life." I can say "I made this."

You can too. It's about faith... faith in yourself.

I would assert that, while healthy self esteem and confidence is good, there has to be more to life than "faith in myself."

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John

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