|
|
07-05-2008, 04:59 AM
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
|
|
07-05-2008, 05:09 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
More fun from YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4...eature=related Why Won't God Heal Amputees?
|
|
07-05-2008, 05:32 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
This is true with ANY religion or religious organization, I think. Scientology is particularly dangerous though, I believe, because of the insidious, deceptive and coercive practices in which its leaders and proponents engage.
__________________
Peace, John My eBay World My Librarything MySpace . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture Last edited by peacemover : 07-05-2008 at 06:43 PM.
|
| Advertisement | |||
|
|
07-05-2008, 08:21 PM
|
||||
|
||||
My response to questions 1 (more to come)
Quote:
Interesting video segment which asks thoughtful and thought-provoking questions. I would like to suggest that, again, it is yet another example of rationalist attempts to caricaturize religious belief, and specifically Christian religious belief as a one-dimensional, simplistic crutch for feeble minded people who do not trust in the power of Reason (capital 'R' deliberate)-because really that is the 'god' that perspectives such as this one appeal to, is it not? As if 'Reason' is some sort of infallible belief system with all the answers to life's difficult questions. There have always been and will always be questions and challenges that surpass our human ability to quantify or fully comprehend. However, that does not have to mean that the only two alternatives are NO RELIGION/SECULAR HUMANISM/ATHEISM/AGNOSTICISM or FUNDAMENTALISM/LITERALISM.... This is the 'false choice' and reductive fallacy I see many otherwise very intelligent, rational and well-informed people with understandable skepticism resorting to (as I believe may be the case with the perspective espoused in this video as well). As "an intelligent person" he should realize that the reductive assumptions he has made set up a false dichotomy that is, in itself, not well thought out. Here are my initial thoughts/responses to the (thoughtful and relevant) questions asked in the video (hard questions require deep answers so please bear with me here): Quote:
Here is my take: -God is not an 'interventionist' (i.e. God is not a bearded, white haired old man sitting up at a computer with his finger on 'smite' or 'heal' buttons- as Gary Larson so brilliantly poked fun at in one of his Far Side cartoons):  The way a very wise mentor and friend described his belief about prayer, which resonates very deeply with me is: "Prayer does not change God, (or God's mind) prayer changes ME." In other words, prayer does not change God's mind about healing or not healing, punishing or not punishing, intervening or not intervening- rather prayer changes how I SEE THE WORLD and RELATE TO MY NEIGHBOR and FIND MEANING and ACCEPTANCE about the questions and developments in my life. To quote another beloved prayer that has helped millions in recovery and seeking a greater sense of meaning and purpose in their lives: "God Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot Change; the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference." -Reinhold Neibuhr I have found a lot of meaning and truth in those words of wisdom. Quote:
God is not some divine superhero or villain out there selectively 'saving' or 'healing' people while causing or allowing others to suffer. Yet, I also believe that God is not impotent or powerless- rather I believe God chooses to manifest God's influence and power through working within peoples' hearts and minds to help them to live a better life, strive to be a good, loving neighbor, and seek to help make the world a better place- one person, one need, one day, one moment at a time. I believe God works in this way because I have experienced in my own life, and seen this deep peace and spiritual healing manifested powerfully in the lives of others- including amputees. In this sense, miracles can be and are very real to many, many people.
__________________
Peace, John My eBay World My Librarything MySpace . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture Last edited by peacemover : 07-05-2008 at 09:15 PM.
|
|
07-05-2008, 08:22 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
My response to question 2 (more to come)
Quote:
Quote:
That said though- here is my attempt at an answer: The amount and scope of suffering, hunger and unnecessary hardship among the people of the world is deeply troubling- as it should be to anyone with half a conscience. Here is one example to add to the discussion, that should be (but sadly probably is not) alarming to many: -the bottled water industry pulls in close to TEN BILLION $$$ per year in profits. -according to the World Health Organization, clean drinking water could be safely provided to every one of the 2.6 billion people who presently do not have access to it for just 1.7 BILLION $ per year -that is just 17 PERCENT of the annual profits of the bottled water industry could provide clean drinking water to EVERYONE in the world who is presently without it. For more on this see the excellent article "Bad to the Last Drop," by Tom Standage, that appeared in the NY Times on 8/1/05. The above-mentioned example is a case of what many proponents of social justice within the faith community would refer to as 'societal sin,' in other words a sin (or 'missing the mark' God has set for our lives) as a society. While I do not have specific statistics before me, I believe a similar connection could be made with the world food supply >> a small percentage of the annual profits of major food providers could easily provide nutritious, sustaining food to the entire world population that is malnourished. Believe it or not, malnourishment is not just a problem in the third world- it is a problem here in the good old USA in many at-risk segments of the population. We need to better, and can do better- one person, one day, one dollar, one resource better stewarded at a time. And a follow on to question 2: Quote:
Also, within a stream of Christian belief known as "liberation theology," which has been quite popular in Latin America, there is a belief that God suffers along with humankind when we suffer, rather than causing or passively allowing human suffering. The 'why does God allow it question' inevitably goes back to the whole 'free will' question. If humanity was/is truly given 'free will,' then consequently when given the choice of doing good or doing evil, compassion or cruelty, altruism or selfishness, humanity will inevitably choose evil, cruelty, and selfishness a significant portion of the time. This does not necessarily mean that humanity is either all bad or that this has to mean that God is powerless and irrelevant, or non-existent.
__________________
Peace, John My eBay World My Librarything MySpace . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture Last edited by peacemover : 07-05-2008 at 09:23 PM.
|
|
07-05-2008, 08:25 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
My response to question 3 (more to come)
Quote:
Quote:
The vast majority of people of faith, except for perhaps those who are most rigidly fundamentalist/literalistic in their views would probably agree that scripture, while divinely inspired, is, at least in part: -a human product containing teachings specifically written by and addressed to an ancient community (to paraphrase the words of progressive Christian theologian Marcus Borg, whom I greatly respect and whose perspective resonates very deeply with me) -that is not to say that there are not deep spiritual truths that scripture contains that are inspiring and relevant to peoples throughout the ages- including today The speaker references several passages from the Hebrew Scriptures (also known to many Christians as 'The Old Testament') that all relate back to what is known as: The Levitical Holiness Code There are more than 600 levitical laws cited in the Hebrew scriptures, many of which are summarized in Leviticus chapters 17-26 These were teachings, which according to tradition were handed down by Moses to the levites (priestly class among the Israelites), as a guide for holy living specifically for the people of the ancient Israelite community. If anyone claims that they all apply today, ask them how many of the 600+ commandments they themselves keep. If they point to only a few as being important, ask them why, if they believe in a 'literal' interpretation of all scripture as a authoritative do they themselves interpret it so selectively/reductively... Arguments can be, (and have been) made for or against many points of view based on citing scripture. Also, one can refer to the commandment (from the ten commandments): "Thou shalt not kill." As recently deceased comedian George Carlin accurately pointed out in his comic routine (warning: previous link contains vulgar and arguably misogynistic language) on "The Ten Commandments" in which he seeks to basically reduce them down to two commandments ("Though shalt always be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nookie [sic], and thou shalt try really hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man than the one you pray to,") as vulgar and irreverent as Carlin was, he rightly observed that throughout the ages, religious people and authorities have considered this commandment "negotiable...depends upon who's doing the killing and who's getting killed." George may not have realized that Jesus already boiled all the commandments down to one that he taught is most important- the great commandment. The commandment not to kill, I would assert, is not negotiable- one human being killing another is ALWAYS wrong unless, some would argue, if it is either in self defense, or to save further lives- as in the case of say a Hitler or Pol Pot, etc... Even then, killing should never be the first option. It is a last resort if there is NO OTHER WAY to prevent others from being killed by that individual. Pacifists, like the late Mennonite scholar John Howard Yoder, would argue that EVEN THEN killing is not justifiable, because of what the act of killing does to one's own spirit- much the less the fact that the act of killing another person takes that person's life. For more about what killing does to a person, read the excellent book:  On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society by Dave Grossman, a retired Lieutenant Colonel, army Ranger and paratrooper who also taught psychology at West Point, in this excellent book looks at (from the forward of his book): Quote:
This is powerful stuff... I am going to continue to work and think through the remaining questions posed here... My response to questions 4-10 will be forthcoming when I regain some more brain power... Thank you for sharing this thought-provoking piece with us, Ezra!
__________________
Peace, John My eBay World My Librarything MySpace . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture Last edited by peacemover : 07-05-2008 at 09:09 PM.
|
|
07-05-2008, 08:34 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
A soft answer turns away wrath. But greivous words stir up anger.
Proverbs 15:1
__________________
The Phils are champs, go phuck yourself!
|
|
07-05-2008, 09:11 PM
|
||||
|
||||
I like that one... definitely words of wisdom.
Quote:
__________________
Peace, John My eBay World My Librarything MySpace . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture
|
|
07-06-2008, 12:05 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
All relatively straightforward to answer if one takes the time to wait for an answer.
|
|
07-06-2008, 03:16 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Your responses strike me as more along the lines of anti-atheism than pro-theism or seeking to find mutual understanding, if that makes any sense to you Geoff...
Personally I think the fact that the questions are being asked and grappled with shows that a searching and longing for deeper, more satisfying answers exists. Part of the problem with the religious-atheism debate is that people on the far ends of the spectrum seem to be the loudest voices. They are shouting past one another rather than listening and dialoguing with a respect and humility that there are human beings struggling to find deeper meaning in their lives. Quote:
__________________
Peace, John My eBay World My Librarything MySpace . . . . "The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.
Because the brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough.”" -Randy Pausch, from "Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," also known as The Last Lecture Last edited by peacemover : 07-06-2008 at 03:19 AM.
|
 |
| Thread Tools | |
|
|
