"Where was God?" - PhillyBlog

peacemover · #1 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 10:10 AM

There was an interesting OP-ED piece that appeared in the NY Times earlier this week. The writer raises a question that I think many people ask in the wake of tragedies like the tsunami- Where is God in the midst of human suffering? From my own perspective, I believe as a Christian that somehow, God suffers with us. What are your thoughts?

Here's the article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/10/op...ea1dc7cbb404a7

Quote:

January 10, 2005
OP-ED COLUMNIST

Where Was God?
By WILLIAM SAFIRE

Washington

In the aftermath of a cataclysm, with pictures of parents sobbing over dead infants driven into human consciousness around the globe, faith-shaking questions arise: Where was God? Why does a good and all-powerful deity permit such evil and grief to fall on so many thousands of innocents? What did these people do to deserve such suffering?

After a similar natural disaster wiped out tens of thousands of lives in Lisbon in the 18th century, the philosopher Voltaire wrote "Candide," savagely satirizing optimists who still found comfort and hope in God. After last month's Indian Ocean tsunami, the same anguished questioning is in the minds of millions of religious believers.

Turn to the Book of Job in the Hebrew Bible. It was written some 2,500 years ago during what must have been a crisis of faith. The covenant with Abraham - worship the one God, and his people would be protected - didn't seem to be working. The good died young, the wicked prospered; where was the promised justice?

The poet-priest who wrote this book began with a dialogue between God and the Satan, then a kind of prosecuting angel. When God pointed to "my servant Job" as most upright and devout, the Satan suggested Job worshipped God only because he had been given power and riches. On a bet that Job would stay faithful, God let the angel take the good man's possessions, kill his children and afflict him with loathsome boils.

The first point the Book of Job made was that suffering is not evidence of sin. When Job's friends said that he must have done something awful to deserve such misery, the reader knows that is false. Job's suffering was a test of his faith: even as he grew angry with God for being unjust - wishing he could sue him in a court of law - he never abandoned his belief.

And did this righteous Gentile get furious: "Damn the day that I was born!" Forget the so-called "patience of Job"; that legend is blown away by the shockingly irreverent biblical narrative. Job's famous expression of meek acceptance in the 1611 King James Version - "though he slay me, yet will I trust in him" - was a blatant misreading by nervous translators. Modern scholarship offers a much different translation: "He may slay me, I'll not quaver."

The point of Job's gutsy defiance of God's injustice - right there in the Bible - is that it is not blasphemous to challenge the highest authority when it inflicts a moral wrong. (I titled a book on this "The First Dissident.") Indeed, Job's demand that his unseen adversary show up at a trial with a written indictment gets an unexpected reaction: in a thunderous theophany, God appears before the startled man with the longest and most beautifully poetic speech attributed directly to him in Scripture.

Frankly, God's voice "out of the whirlwind" carries a message not all that satisfying to those wondering about moral mismanagement. Virginia Woolf wrote in her journal "I read the Book of Job last night - I don't think God comes well out of it."

The powerful voice demands of puny Man: "Where were you when I laid the Earth's foundations?" Summoning an image of the mythic sea-monster symbolizing Chaos, God asks, "Canst thou draw out Leviathan with a hook?" The poet-priest's point, I think, is that God is occupied bringing light to darkness, imposing physical order on chaos, and leaves his human creations free to work out moral justice on their own.

Job's moral outrage caused God to appear, thereby demonstrating that the sufferer who believes is never alone. Job abruptly stops complaining, and - in a prosaic happy ending that strikes me as tacked on by other sages so as to get the troublesome book accepted in the Hebrew canon - he is rewarded. (Christianity promises to rectify earthly injustice in an afterlife.)

Job's lessons for today:

(1) Victims of this cataclysm in no way "deserved" a fate inflicted by the Leviathanic force of nature.

(2) Questioning God's inscrutable ways has its exemplar in the Bible and need not undermine faith.

(3) Humanity's obligation to ameliorate injustice on earth is being expressed in a surge of generosity that refutes Voltaire's cynicism.

E-mail: safire@nytimes.com

SurfDog · #2 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 11:27 AM

I don't think I agree with Safire ...

There is an interesting story on this subject at NPR.

Quote:

Reconciling Religious Faith and Natural Disaster

Morning Edition, January 10, 2005 · The world's major faiths were affected by the tsunami -- Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews and Christians all suffered catastrophic losses. Members of different religions talk about how they reconcile human suffering with the idea of a caring God. NPR's Barbara Bradley Hagerty reports.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=4276173

Ezra · #3 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 02:26 PM

Why does God have to participate in this or any catastrophy?

The planet shrugged as it is has been wont to do since it came to be. God neither caused the tsunami nor is he involved with saving or killing the people effected.

Its great that a couple people that prayed were found alive. Does that prove God? I know I'd be praying too if I were washed out to sea with no food, water or shelter. But 100's of thousands died. Does that mean they didn't pray enough? Does that disprove God? If this were a survey, I'd say that's 200,000 votes against God and 200 voted for.

You could say "where was god when the dinosaurs bought it?" or where was god during every war etc... Life happens and there is no supreme being who is watching, interacting or caring. I can't stand it when God is strutted out whenever something good happens yet he's helpless whenever something bad happens. Why does he get 100% credit for good but no fault for bad?

chrissayer · #4 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 03:19 PM

But, Ezra, don't forget. Invoke His name and you will make a foul shot.

IMPAQ · #5 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 03:33 PM

I read this little book and I'd recommend it to anyone seeking the same answers. It's small, simple and to the point, but it's a really good read.

skroah · #6 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 05:37 PM

That dudes got a mullet AND a combover. There is no way he has answers that i'll be satisfied with. I can live with the fear uncertainty and despair and I hope you all can learn to do the same. Come on in the waters fine.

peacemover · #7 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 05:52 PM

These are questions with no easy or completely satisfying answers. They are still worth asking, though I believe. You don't believe in God? That is your choice and right to do so, but don't so readily discount beliefs that can neither be proved or disproved.

If you have more questions, ask them.

As for Safire's perspective, I do not agree with him on much, but I do believe he touched on an important point which is that people ask this question during times of great crisis and tragedy.

The sad part is that all too many people point to themselves when good things happen and point at God when tragedies and disasters come along. Humanity and the way in which life exists in our world is too amazing to be a chance occurance- don't you think?

Take a look at the book of Job sometime and look at the dialogue between Job and God in the midst of Job's suffering. It is a pretty profound story.

As for the tsunami, natural disasters and tragedies occur- we can try to understand, but our first response should be compassion.

Winston · #8 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 07:31 PM

Since this is probably the only time I'll agree with Ezra on this board, I may as well revel in it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ezra

Why does God have to participate in this or any catastrophy?

The planet shrugged as it is has been wont to do since it came to be. God neither caused the tsunami nor is he involved with saving or killing the people effected.

Its great that a couple people that prayed were found alive. Does that prove God? I know I'd be praying too if I were washed out to sea with no food, water or shelter. But 100's of thousands died. Does that mean they didn't pray enough? Does that disprove God? If this were a survey, I'd say that's 200,000 votes against God and 200 voted for.

You could say "where was god when the dinosaurs bought it?" or where was god during every war etc... Life happens and there is no supreme being who is watching, interacting or caring. I can't stand it when God is strutted out whenever something good happens yet he's helpless whenever something bad happens. Why does he get 100% credit for good but no fault for bad?

Bravo! My sentiments exactly. Especially when so many bad things don't just happen on his watch (e.g., the tsunami) but actually in his name (the Crusades, the Inquisition and, these days, Islamic terrorism, to name just a few).

I’ve always preferred what’s called either Occam’s Razor or the principle of parsimony—namely, that the simplest explanation is probably true—over dogmatic faith, especially when presented with convoluted logic like Safire’s that plainly ignores the evidence.

chrissayer · #9 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 07:36 PM

By coincidence, just stumbled across this in LA Times.

Quote:

Although Americans are far more religious than Europeans, they know far less about religion.

In Europe, religious education is the rule from the elementary grades on. So Austrians, Norwegians and the Irish can tell you about the Seven Deadly Sins or the Five Pillars of Islam. But, according to a 1997 poll, only one out of three U.S. citizens is able to name the most basic of Christian texts, the four Gospels, and 12% think Noah's wife was Joan of Arc. That paints a picture of a nation that believes God speaks in Scripture but that can't be bothered to read what he has to say.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...mment-opinions

Probably has nothing to do with Safire and his citing of Job but ......

More Americans probably know about Jobs than Job, in this all so religious nation.

Winston · #10 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 07:47 PM

Quote:

But, according to a 1997 poll, only one out of three U.S. citizens is able to name the most basic of Christian texts, the four Gospels

That's easy. The four gospels were written by John, Paul, George and Ringo. Hmm, wait, that's not it. Luke, Leia, Chewie and Han? Yep, now I remember.

Quote:

More Americans probably know about Jobs than Job, in this all so religious nation.

I definitely worship at the church of (Steve) Jobs.