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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2007, 01:24 AM
etherwaves etherwaves is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScorpioRose View Post
It AMAZES me how many people still parrot the old Galileo myths without realizing that they've been exposed as frauds:

http://www.catholicleague.org/research/galileo.html

(yes, yes, I realize its from a Catholic website, but that does not change the facts, the research or the references.)
This is all a bit off topic, but since you threw it out:

1) Read your link carefully, with the same objectivity you assume its author to have. Your use of the word "frauds" is a bit extreme. Your author seems to be quelling some of the hype about Mr. Galileo that has snowballed in the last ~400 years. The primary concern seems to be how it has become a staple of anti-Catholic arguments. The role the church had in the process of "doing science" is still supported by your author's research. In this particular case, that role was to forcibly silence ideas that didn't dovetail with scripture. It happened. No fraud.

2) The example of Galileo is germane to the current debate on evolution and education. That's why folks like me "parrot the old Galileo 'myths'". A shrewd creationist wouldn't get all smug about it like you have: for either side of the debate, the major issue, at heart, is the difference between what science helps us know, and what faith helps us believe. Any time these lines are blurred, calamity ensues. That includes instances where scientists feel they can tell you what to believe. If you can interpret Galileo's work that way, then maybe you can try him all over again yourself, for kicks. For most folks, the flip side of the argument is more poignant, namely that rigid beliefs constrain science.

If creationism could gain a credible scientific foothold, then folks like our unemployed scientist from the original post would have been able to engage in productive discourse on the matter. It is that kind of intellectual freedom that we perceive the church to have suppressed in the old days. No fraud.

Enough about that.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2007, 02:31 AM
MayfairMeat MayfairMeat is offline
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Well I guess if we can discriminate against gay people for who we are, we can also discriminate on either side of philosophical issues. Curiously though, philosophical views are often shielded under the defense of religious conviction in an attempt to deflect and not address a belief.

When someone is using religion to justify a belief vs. when a belief is based on physical and tangible evidence is something even jurists often have trouble sorting correctly.

So, is it OK to fire someone from a job because they are a creationist?

If it isn't, then why is that not OK, but firing someone for being gay is? [N/M the Supreme Court decision for the Boy Scouts, we're talking employment discrimination based on similar personal convictions].

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScorpioRose View Post
This is the result of philosophers hijacking the scientific world back in the mid 1800s.

So much for 'tolerance' and being "open-minded' to other views. I guess that only applies if you believe in Darwinism.

Interesting...Abraham is not even on the list at the link on the bottom of my sig line, but another scientist from Woods Hole is.

The question seems to be: can a person work in an environment where they do not believe in the key tenets of the organization?

I worked for several years as a publishing representative for a major Lutheran publishing company. I'm a Jew. Yet part of my job was publicizing Christian books!
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2007, 07:05 PM
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Michael Tree Michael Tree is offline
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Originally Posted by EastChestnut View Post
So, is it OK to fire someone from a job because they are a creationist?

If it isn't, then why is that not OK, but firing someone for being gay is? [N/M the Supreme Court decision for the Boy Scouts, we're talking employment discrimination based on similar personal convictions].
It's okay to fire somewhat from a job if their beliefs prevent them from actually doing the job.

I can't think of any jobs where being gay would prevent a person from doing the job, aside from being a hetero-porn star.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2007, 02:44 PM
geoffrobinson geoffrobinson is offline
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Originally Posted by OVP_Biker View Post
So, he took a job, then refused to do what it called for. If that's not grounds for firing, what is?
It's a tad more complicated than that. He could do the work and even say something along the lines of "Darwinian evolution would interpret this as x, y, and z."

He was fired because he didn't believe Darwinian evolution is true.

Obviously, this will be litigated out and more details will come out.
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Old 12-14-2007, 03:25 PM
geoffrobinson geoffrobinson is offline
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Originally Posted by DCnPhilly View Post
I can't believe how heated the issue of Creationism vs. Darwinism has gotten, especially amongst secularly educated people, and especially in public schools. The Separation of Church and State in this country is starting to get scarily gray. There would have been no question to this debate 20 years ago. Darwinism is partially theory, yes, but the difference in it's theoretical value as compared to Creationism as a theory is that it is based on the scientific method - the basis of science and what is and should be taught in science class. As theoretical as Darwinism may be, it's validity is upheld by factual evidence gathered scientifically since it's inception.
Really? I think it's practical value is quite minimal.

First, they got the whole Junk DNA thing wrong. There assumptions about mutations producing new genetic information or code could hurt us medically. (see: http://www.uncommondescent.com/darwi...ience-stopper/)

Most of Darwinian explanations regarding natural selection (and I have no problem with natural selection just not the random mutation part) just boil down to survivors survive.

So it can explain mean people and nice people. Honest people and liars. Small animals and large. There is nothing it can't explain.

In other words, it has little to no predictive power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCnPhilly View Post
Creationism is not science, it cannot be science, because theories based on faith are not subject to scientific method. There is absolutely nothing scientific about Creationism, and while I have no problem with people choosing a faith and believing in such concepts, projecting them into the scientific realm and forcing secular students to learn "facts" based on faith is incredibly dangerous.
A lot of Neo-Darwinian Theory rests on the faith commitment of materialism. There has to be a naturalistic cause. Therefore, whatever exists has been produced by Darwinian forces. Isn't it amazing what it can do? It can produce genetic code which has error-control mechanisms even though Darwinian processes rely on errors (mutations) to create variability for new features. Look at that. A system based on errors fixing errors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCnPhilly View Post
Have you ever known a country run by religion to be a success?
Broaching the subject that atheistic materialism has failed to explain the origin of life and many biological features, as well as anthropic principle arguments, and arguing for teleology hardly constitute running a country by religion.

If you are referring to a specific Biblical interpretation completely divorced from science, that would be a problem.
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