A Jew believing in Christ is the same as a woman being a little bit pregnant. Both are impossible.

Scorpio Rose:
You certainly know it doesn't take much to get PhillyBoggers going !
Anyone who saw that flyer and could read Russian would have known exactly what the flyer was saying. Period

On the basis of what do you make this claim?

I know secular atheistic Jews still considered Jews. I know Buddhists still considered Jews. The Talmud even declares in Sanhedrin 44a that Israelites who sin are still called Israel.

So if Jewish atheists are still considered Jews why not Jews who believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who believe Jesus is the promised Messiah as described in the Tanakh?

[quote=geoffrobinson;577974]In the case at hand, you can't distinguish in your mind the difference between disagreement and deception. Even after it has been explained in this thread. So fundamental in your mind is the distinguishing of Jewishness and following Jesus, that you don't seem able to get your mind around the fact that others don't believe the same way you do. Jewishness and following Jesus aren't mutually exclusive.

Thank you for taking the time to articulate your objections to my statements, although I daresay they provoked a defensive response that I did not intend to inspire. Indeed after reading my comments I am now wondering if the tone was too strident and though I do not take take back anything I stated, I concede perhaps I could have been more diplomatic in phrasing what I had to say. I have nothing against Christianity and did state clearly that the vast and overwhelming majority of Christian missionaries performed excellent works both here and abroad. The debate isn't about missionary work, it is about the use of deception.

It is interesting to note that the flyer Ms. ScorpioRose saw that created this whole discussion now appears to have been non-deceptive and was upfront about being a church affiliated mission aimed at converting Jews to Christianity. If they are upfront about it, how can anyone object?

geoffrobinson, you state that I cannot distinguish between deception and disagreement in my mind, even after it has been explained to me in this thread. As they say down south: "Well, shut my mouth!" What are you saying? I cannot ascertain the meanings and definitions of those two words because I have not come to agree with you? I assure you that having earned two post graduate degrees, winning awards for establishing an archives and research facility, published papers and articles, having travelled now to over 100 countries on six continents, etc (I can go on but I'm sure I'm boring people reading this) that I can indeed make the distinction between the words "deception" and "disagreement." You are condescending and trying to patronize me.

Anyway, I will return to a point where we do disagree and there is no deception involved. You as a Christian maintain that a Jew can accept Christianity and still remain a Jew. Here we disagree. I am not a Jew but all of my Jewish friends tell me that is not possible. They are mutually exclusive. They are two differant religions. The "Jews for Jesus" group is not accepted in the community of mainstream Jews, neither here or in Israel. Jews regard them as apostates. Such a group will typically meet in a Christian Church because would any synogogue (and I don't mean "messianic synogogue") be it Orthodox, Chasidic, Conservative, Reform or Reconstructionist recognize them? I think not.

On the other hand, it might be possible to be a Buddhist and a Christian at the same time! I'll explain that some other time!

To my Jewish friends: "L'SHANA TOVAH" !!!!!

__________________
"Do I contradict myself? Very well then, I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes." -- Walt Whitman, Leaves Of Grass

Sorry I didn't reply sooner, I lost this thread after not being here for a few days.

Its very common for evangelical churches to finance and host deceptive "messianic" groups, so that is why it did not surprise me to see them at the church location.

The "messianic" group downtown at 19th and Chestnut for years was financed by the PCUSA.

I can prove that J was not the true Jewish Messiah. But everytime I do, Christianmissionaries to the Jews say to me, "That is so interesting! I have to research that and get back to you".

And they never do.

What especially annoys me is that the Christian Bible gives permission to Christians to deceive other people, by posing as others so as to convert them to Christianity.

From the ASV, 1 Cor. 9:20:

For though I was free from all men, I brought myself under bondage to all, that I might gain the more. And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, not being myself under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; to them that are without law, as without law, not being without law to God, but under law to Christ, that I might gain them that are without law

OK, let me put this in a way you might understand...

You are Christian. Let's say a group started that claimed to also be Christian, but they believe that, in addition to a belief in J, they also believe that Buddha was a prophet.

Would you be upset they they call themselves Christians?

Don't many evangelical Christians get upset at the:

Roman Catholics
Mormons
Jehovah's Witnesses


because THEY claim to be Christian too, yet hold beliefs that conflict with evangelicalism?

How is that any different?

Judaism teaches, and has always taught (see Deut chapter 4 for starters) that G-d DOES NOT take on human form. EVER.

The story of J's virgin birth is copied from the story of Samson in the Book of Judges. Almost literally. The NT writers even confused "nazarene" with "nazarite", when they claimed in Luke 2 that the Jewish Bible has a prophecy which says that the Messiah "Shall be called a Nazarene" (it says that nowhere.)

In J's lineage as given in the NT, Jeconiah is listed. Yet in Jeremiah, it says that NO person from Jeconiah's lineage would ever sit on the Davidic, messianic throne. So that rules J out. And no, Mary's lineage does not count, since in Jewish law, messianic lineage descends only through the father.

An even better example would be a group that claims to be Christian, but also believe that the prophet Mohammed was the last and most perfect prophet, and that the Koran is the final revelation of God on earth. Then, they start calling themselves Prophetic Christians, and start going to Christian groups to recruit people to their cause. Would you be upset if they call themselves Christians?

Uh huh. Sounds like blaming the victim for their misfortune. Yes, and English settlers in the New World received resistance and harassment from the native Indian tribes; so that justified what happened to the Indians in the next two centuries ... right?

... and even if true, since when does two wrongs make a right? What ever happened to "turning the other cheek"???

Believe me, the persecution, oppression, degradation and continuing banishments and massacres of European Jewry cannot be justified by "ill will in the Christian Community" as you state.

__________________
"Do I contradict myself? Very well then, I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes." -- Walt Whitman, Leaves Of Grass

Some of the earliest Christian writings (both in the NT and outside the NT) were virulently anti-semitic. This is all well documented.

As much of a student of religious history as I am, I have not heard of any Jewish persecution of Christianity, apart from what is recorded in the Christian Bible. Persecutions by the Romans, yes, but the Jews? Jews were powerless at that time to persecute anyone, except maybe individually. The Romans occupied and ruled Judea, remember?

I wonder if Geoff can cite any sources?