Telling the truth is sometimes negative. Misleading people into thinking where you live is "up and coming" and safe is NEVER positive.

Let me ask you again, are we done now?

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The Phils are champs, go phuck yourself!

I entered the brt record id for the middle address ($160) into Hallwatch's comparable properties feature and I got the following recent sales in the surrounding few blocks (current as of November 2005).... The asking prices don't seem out of line with the recent sales in the neighborhood.

Address - Date Sold - Price - Square Feet - Price / Sq Foot
1 1631 JACKSON ST 10/17/2005 $136,233.00 1,290 $105.61
2 2226 S 17TH ST 09/27/2005 $175,000.00 1,416 $123.59
3 2119 S 16TH ST 07/16/2005 $90,000.00 1,380 $65.22
4 2119 S 16TH ST 06/08/2005 $73,500.00 1,380 $53.26
5 2237 S 18TH ST 12/17/2004 $115,000.00 1,330 $86.47
6 2247 S 18TH ST 07/20/2004 $72,000.00 1,276 $56.43
7 1702 WOLF ST 05/05/2004 $125,000.00 1,520 $82.24
8 2131 S 16TH ST 04/05/2004 $131,500.00 1,380 $95.29
9 2240 S 17TH ST 12/23/2003 $115,000.00 1,416 $81.21
10 2236 S 17TH ST 11/04/2003 $85,000.00 1,416 $60.03
11 2225 S 17TH ST 10/22/2003 $103,500.00 1,500 $69.00
12 2224 S 17TH ST 10/20/2003 $95,000.00 1,416 $67.09
13 2126 S 16TH ST 08/28/2003 $110,000.00 1,508 $72.94
14 2113 S 16TH ST 07/16/2003 $97,000.00 1,380 $70.29
15 1616 JACKSON ST 07/02/2003 $124,900.00 1,440 $86.74

Correct, but they're low, indicating a faltering market for that neighborhood. Check out some of the recent sales around jackson/wolf/snyder, east of broad:


# Property Recording date Price Area Price Per Sq. Ft.
1 1101 TREE ST 10/19/2005 $231,000.00 1,408 $164.06
2 2123 S 13TH ST 10/13/2005 $187,000.00 1,560 $119.87
3 1112 JACKSON ST 10/04/2005 $259,900.00 1,410 $184.33
4 810 SNYDER AVE 09/23/2005 $112,000.00 1,566 $71.52
5 612 MIFFLIN ST 08/31/2005 $77,000.00 1,280 $60.16
6 2004 S 10TH ST 08/12/2005 $215,000.00 1,440 $149.31
7 1212 SNYDER AVE 08/04/2005 $218,000.00 1,464 $148.91
8 2209 S 11TH ST 07/27/2005 $170,000.00 1,280 $132.81
9 1155 TREE ST 07/22/2005 $150,000.00 1,456 $103.02
10 1122 SNYDER AVE 07/12/2005 $150,000.00 1,538 $97.53

Note that #4 and 5 are in a crappy area.

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"When you operate in an overbuilt metropolis, you have to hack your way with a meat ax."

Marconi, I would love to hear more about the neighborhood group that you say is forming and other progress being made.

I'm not originally from Philly and don't know all it's history, but I don't see any reason this area couldn't improve if the area had an active neighborhood association.

I walked through the area this morning in fact and it didn't seem so bad. I think I might drive around there at night and see how different it is. It's certainly better than many other areas of the city.

I have friends on the 2500 block of 15th and it seems really nice, but that's a few blocks down from 2100-2200, and a few block does make a big difference in the city.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, my girlfriend and I walked through this neighborhood (15th to 16th, Jackson to Ritner) this past Saturday. We walked up and down each block in that square. The neighborhood seemed nice to me. But I know full well what can happen to a neighborhood.

Having grown up in Overbrook, I know that only because a neighborhood seems nice, doesn't mean it is. If you walked down my old street 10 years ago, you'd see well-maintained lawns and neighbors outside. However, those who lived there were well aware of the increase in robberies, stolen vehicles, drug trafficking, etc. That's the type of stuff you don't see by just walking through. Also, before passing away, my grandparents lived on Cleveland Street, half a block north of Synder, near Chuck's Water Ice, and I saw that area deteriorate in a blink of an eye.

That being said, I believe that both Marconi Monster and ChiefSalsa make good points. Chief may know things about that neighborhood that others don't, but MM may be seeing something that looks like positive change...and it seems like he's part of it. Think about one of the new hot neighborhoods: Washington Avenue. If 5 years ago, I told you I was moving there, you'd laugh (I would laugh at myself!) Now the Lofts at BV pop up and everyone is looking there.

When I look at this neighborhood, I can see the chance of both positive and negative.
Postives: in between P. Square and GE, close to pub trans, shopping. Negatives: closeness to the blight of Snyder = potential for infiltration of crime

Adding to eddiejames' comment, I would also like to hear more about the changes taking place in this neighborhood. I am seriously considering this area, as it is right within my price range and seems like the type of setting I'm looking for: close to the Subway, walking distance to East Passyunk shopping, close-nit neighborhood feel. On the flip side, I'd also like to hear from ChiefSalsa or anyone else who shares his views to let me know if I'm wasting my time here.

I have lived on the 2100 block of 15th Street for over a year and I just don't understand why people are saying such horrible things about it. Sure we have some problems with trash and a few apartment owners who don't care who they are renting to, but our block is pretty quiet and people look out for one another. We also have a block captain now and had 3 successful street clean-ups this summer. I've seen so many positive changes in the last year to this area that I am feeling nothing but hopeful. I believe that our area will be as good as Passyunk Square in a few years time, especially if people who care continue to move in and help out!

It makes me sad that some are so quick to thumb their noses and slam down others who are optimistic and are trying to make changes like Marconi Monster is doing. I have spoken with the owner of the Tap Room and he has already started the ball rolling with a Civic Association in the area. I know that Guerin Recreational Center (2201 S. 16th) is slated for a major rennovation this Spring, and that there is an active block committee on the 2100 block of S. 16th Street that meets on a regular basis and is working hard to solve the area's recent problems. My block is having their first block commitee meeting next week at Guerin. Both blocks plan to work together to create more of a community.

The 2200 block of 15th is comprised mostly of apartment buildings so it is more of a challenge for that block to come together the way we are. However, I noticed that 3 of those buildings are for sale, which I take to be a positive sign. On my block many of the apartment owners have rehabbed their buildings this past year and are rethinking who they rent to these days.

Our area is actually the 1st Police District, not the 17th, which is primarily what that article Eldondre posted refers too. Sure, we are having problems with crime, but if you look at LJLong's crime reports so is the rest of South Philly, and the whole city for that matter. That shooting over the summer scared me, but the way violence is up so much throughout the city I know it could have happened anywhere these days. Even Penn's campus is experiencing their worst wave of crime in 10 years and they have a heck of a security force. The 1st Police District is now hosting monthly community meetings the first Tuesday of the month and they are trying their best to address complaints and make our area better overall. Parts of Snyder and the 2000-2300 blocks of Broad are a mess, but that could change easily if the people of South Philly stopped saying that is just the way it is, made the business owners accountable for their properties, and talked to their council people about helping to faciliate change.

We have to work a bit harder in South Philly, especially since large parts of it have taken a downward turn in recent years, but look at all the change recently to the Graduate Hospital, Passyunk Square, University City, Northern Liberties, and Bella Vista areas. The big reason they changed so much for the better and are all considered hot areas to live now? The people who lived there didn't give up, get lazy, or turn a blind eye to the crime, but rather they dug their heels in, came together, made all the calls they could, meet with council people, and worked their butts off until they have the neighborhoods we see now. I'll be happy to talk to anyone further about all the good things in our neighborhood and what they can do to help make it better...maybe over a beer at the Tap Room!

I don't know that it could change easily, but yes, people saying "that's just the way it is" and accepting crime as an everyday fact of life is a major problem.

I disagree. The main reason, perhaps the only reason, those neighborhoods changed was because of location. Bella Vista was never bad anyway, neither was Passyunk Square. University City has the benefit of an Ivy League university dumping billions into the area. Grad Hosp and NoLibs are right on the borders of Old City and Rittenhouse Square.

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"When you operate in an overbuilt metropolis, you have to hack your way with a meat ax."

Ok. I can see your point. But then there's Girard Estate, Chestnut Hill/Mt. Airy, Manayunk. While GE and CH have their own unique charicteristics that enable them to thrive, Manayunk wasn't exactly in the middle of it all. It is now, but that's just because Main Street was developed into a destination.

As for South of Snyder (by the way, is there a name for this section?), maybe it won't blow up into the the next NoLibs or Society Hill, but it definitely has the potential to strengthen itself to become a family-friendly, close-nit neighborhood, where everybody knows one another...that is the true definition of South Philadelphia. I, for one, am not looking for a section like Bella Vista or Northern Liberties that is blanketed by overpriced condominium development. I'm not knocking it, it's just not what I prefer.

As for location, take a look at Port Richmond, Kensington, and Fishtown. They are just as far from CC as is Broad and Snyder. By the way, the Inky dubbed this section, "Portfishington" in a recent article. The landscape there is much the same as far as a working class, residential community. The only thing that those sections have is the old, waterfront industrial sites, prime RE for condo units.

Whenever people say that a certain neighborhood cannot be turned around (for the good) I always ask them, "50 years ago, people also thought that West Phily would never become a ghetto." But then it did, now it's turning back around, at least some of it is.

As I was looking over past threads, I happened upon this post from Chief Salsa dated 4/24/05. It's on page 18 under the "South Philly Underated" thread:

"Everything from Ritner south, from 10th to 21st is good. Some blocks have a more noise then others. Pennsport, my old neighborhood, is fantastic.

The new shopping at 22nd and Oregon will only make property values increase. My family's properties have increased by 40% in price the last 3 years.

I would not necessarily raise young kids there. If you can get into the Jenks school borders it is a great place. I had my kids there and I was very impressed."


-The 2100 and 2200 blocks of 15th and 16th are only a few blocks away from Ritner. I'm a bit confused as to Chief Salsa's stance on this area now. :what_is_:

Deprofoundis, Penn didn't pour all that money into University City until the crime became completely out of hand and a few people were killed 10 years ago, and although parts of the Graduate Hospital area border Rittenhouse Square, I don't consider 20th and Christian that close. Plus, Graduate Hospital still has a bit of a way to go before it mirrors it's Center City neighbors. I wouldn't say that NoLib is right on the border of Old City either as it is seperated by some major roadways. I lived in both Bella Vista and Passyunk Square in the early 2000's and I remember those areas having way more problems than they do now. It wasn't considered the safest area to live in by many, didn't have the overall community feeling they have now, and had many sketchy blocks. If the only reason these areas changed was because of location than why didn't it happen much sooner? I think it has more to do with people seeking affordable housing and doing alot of hard work in their new neighborhoods.

Snyder and Jackson at 15th have apartments full of junkies and assorted other trash. It is loud, dirty, and the kids who hang around there have not the respect that me and my friends had for the neighborhood when we were young. My family lived at 1432 Jackson and we sold in 2004. We had an apartment building on 2100 15th and we sold. We had a beautiful 3 bedroom house on 2200 Carlisle and we sold.

Right off Guerin Rec lived a family I was close to. The father is a Philly PD police captain. He moved. A police captain. That says enough.

Don't call me out and try disqualify what I said. A few blocks in South Philly is 50 miles in a rural area. I said Ritner south and I meant it. If you want to feel good about where you live then do so. People who own property in that neighborhood are selling. People who lived in that neighborhood their whole lives are moving out. They just pray they can find some gullible Yups to over pay for an inferior product.

Nothing in my post that you quoted contradicts what I say about the area around 15th and Jackson. My family lived there a long time and sold out for a fraction of what my father will get for his house on 1700 Stocker.

Call it negativity all you want. The truth is in the FOR SALE signs.

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The Phils are champs, go phuck yourself!