Thanks for all the replies and thoughts. Keep them coming! The homes are about the same price, but:

The GH house is 50% bigger, has an amazing roof deck, is beautiful newly renovated 20 yr old construction, and has two gated parking spaces.

Society Hill house is adequate for us in size (in fact, they have the same number of rooms, just much bigger in GH), is a little older but appliances and condition are just average. There is a one car garage.

I'm having the baby in a few months at Penn Hospital - a block from the Society Hill house. I could probably just ask the doctors to come to me instead!

I know I would be in a great neighborhood for dogs and young families in Society/Wash West, and it's quite a nice house, but we'd have more room to grow in GH and more possibility of appreciation, as some have mentioned. Maybe I'm being greedy...

Oh, it works out to about 325$/sq.ft in Society Hill, and about 225$ in GH. That's interior space, but I don't know how to factor in the parking. As GH grows richer, I would guess the parking will become more valuable. We only have one car, though, so perhaps could rent out the other?

I forgot: although it seems like the same number of blocks to work, it definitely is 3 minutes or so closer to GH, partly because my entrance is on 15th btwn Spruce and Pine. That seems nitpicky, I know, but late at night when I'm racing through those empty streets that will make a difference!

I live on 19th between Pemberton and Fitzwater...I am quite familar with the block your looking at. I think its its the nicest block in all of Grad Hospital and the neighbors on the block know one another, have cleanup days...its very pleasent and safe.

My wife and I have a son, 20 months... although its far off we have given school a lot of thought, also my wife is a school teacher here in Philly. 18th and Pemberton is the Stanton catchment zone. Stanton has some exciting days ahead. The Philadelphia school district is about to sign a contract to start a 3 year process to convert Stanton into a International Baccalaureate school. This is a prestigious and rigourous curriculum and the idea is Stanton would be converted to a magnate school. While this is exciting, I wouldn't bet on it. There is a three year training peroid and then the I.B. program decides whether or not Stanton meets its criteria after that time. If not, no IB designation. It makes me sad to think it, but I just can't imagine Stanton even coming close after three years. In fact the school district has been slow to sign the contract and I believe they are getting cold feet for just this reason. As for McCall, it has some ardent supportors, but the test scores are lousy and teachers we know who teach in "bad" schools and then spent time at McCall, thinking McCall was going to be a major improvement, were very, very disspointed. Major discipline problems. The principal is in her first year and I am really rooting for her because, dispite what I said, we would consider sending our son there if there is improvement. It is possible to send your children to schools outside the catchment area through a program, which I think is just getting off the ground.

Anyway, back to the neighborhood. Its a mixed bag. A weeks will go by and I will feel very safe, enjoy chatting with our neighbors...then every now and then your confronted with someone with just a total disregard for community, personal property...anything. But that is probably par for the course in any city, no? It is not the Rittenhouse neighborhood by any stretch of the imagination. All things being equal 7th and Pine is much, much nicer. But there is something exciting about all the construction and new businesses in the neighborhood.

Also we have 2 dogs...I walk them around the neighborhood almost exclusively. I would love to spend more time with them at Rittenhouse or at the Dog park at the Schukyll River Park, but its just outside the convenient range for a normal walk, unfortunately.

I can ask my wife about how safe she feels at night. Walking our dogs, I know she feels very safe. But without, I am not sure. I would probably have some concern for her even if she didn't...walking south on 18th at night might sketchy, Kater between 18th and 19th is basically a vacant alley.

Hi,

Thanks for the very helpful info. Actually, because my dogs are smaller, but feisty (20 lb terriers), I sometimes feel more vulnerable with them, in that if someone wanted to bother us I would worry about protecting them as well as myself.

I am leaning toward offering on the Pine St place. Although it doesn't have nearly the same potential for appreciation, we could always invest in a new kitchen down the road, if we really wanted to try adding value. Does that sound reasonable?

Thanks everyone for the thoughts, and feel free to add any more.

Society Hill isnt devoid of crime.... as someone who gets the blotter can attest.

That being said - as I pointed out - the Hospital is RIGHT THERE and there is security around the corner because of the Hospital. I think "fake" houses on the North/West side of the 700 block of Pine are Resident short term housing or something like that.

If I recall right one of the big mucky mucks of Comcast is converting two units on the South side of that block as a palatial private residence.

You arent getting the units from / via M.S. at Plummer are ya (reply via PM if ya want) - just curious / nosey....

Its a nice hood. Pine Street has a Septa bus line so it gets plowed / stays real clear. It also has the double decker busses on it. Be aware that the second deck looks straight into your window on the 2nd floor!

i'd go 18th & Pemberton. With your dogs and kid you'll outgrow the pine street house real fast. The area around 18th & Pemberton has, is, and will continue to change rapidly. Size, appreciation, and a soon-to-be gentrified neighborhood would make the Pemberton-street house more appealing to me.

Hi all,

It does seem like a tough choice, and I really appreciate all the interesting input, but over the weekend I found myself leaning heavily toward Pine. The reason is not so much safety but the fact that I don't see how GH will ever have the wide open park space of Washington Square, Seeger Park (for dogs), etc. With those parks seem to come a neighborhood that's always going to be more stable and family oriented, no?

Juliette

I think you answered your question when you wrote:

"The GH house is 50% bigger, has an amazing roof deck, is beautiful newly renovated 20 yr old construction, and has two gated parking spaces.

Society Hill house is adequate for us in size (in fact, they have the same number of rooms, just much bigger in GH), is a little older but appliances and condition are just average. There is a one car garage."

Because one spends most of the time inside a space, the space with the most to offer is what becomes the most livable.

Plus, there is the equity argument. If you have to put time and energy into a community anyway, why not live where the return is greatest?

There is much in GH that is in the renovation pipeline, such as the bar on the corner of Grays Ferry and Catharine that was just ok'ed by the community to become an Irish upscale pub/restaurant. There is the diner coming to Washington and Grays Ferry. There is the Mediteranean place coming to 22nd and Carpenter. JFK is going to be high end condos on the waterfront, and the waterfront below South St. is being regreened and opened to recreation. The South St. bridge is online to be redone.

This means that you will get tremendous equity in a few years. By the time the kid is old enough to need to go to a new school, you could move and cash in on the equity, if you wanted. The Philadelphia School is nearby in GH. The public schools will need a critical mass of parents who are education advocates with graduate training in either zip code.

A two car garage is a prize in the city that is hard walk away from. It is better than stock in the retirement fund.

My personal sense is that you buy as much house as you can afford so long as it is appreciating in value, and in 19146, values are appreciating at a steeper curve than in 19147, since that neighborhood has leveled off, or at least the curve is less steep.

The people who make the most money on their house are the people who are the most involved in making the 'hood a better place. If you are going to be like that anyway, liver where it will make the most sense financially.

Just report problems on www.ppdonline.com and go the forms section, call 911 often on kids who are out past curfew or being too noisy, and for the hard core nuisance property, certify it for Sheriff sale if it owes more than about $2K in property taxes, see www.hallwatch.org.

Click on "How to Certify a Property for Sheriff Sale" and see how the city makes property tax collection optional for everyone unless someone forces the city to do its job.

We have to elect politicians who are going to collect property taxes that make schools and neighborhoods healthy. Property tax collection can't be at whatever people want to pay. Right now, payment plans are a joke. People pay whatever they want, don't pay their utilities, and live for as long as possible in a house they can't afford. It doesn't help them to delay the obvious. Plenty of people who owe taxes that could go for a decent school system are multiple property owners, out of state, dead but the family still gets the senior discount, or the city is just afraid of them, such as Universal Companies. City Coucil is afraid to point out that they owe the city money.

Where builders operate, they tend to certify most of the property. Where Sheriff sale buyers operate, there is less certification. They wait for their competition to set aside $800 for 12 months.

Anywhere you live in Philly, you have to be familiar with how this works as well as any renovator who certifies property. If you want renvation to occur, in many cases, even in 19147, you have to make that property available to the private market, because the city won't do it. 19147 has the whole MLK plaza problem, and someone has to get on it more than they have been, or that whole area will stay at the current value.

For the ordinary home owner, they have to pick up the certification slack to create peace and quiet in their neighborhoods. It has been worth it to me to put down money and to keep recycling certification on nuisance property. One to three properties has turned over in every year. One nuisance property gone lets the healthy owners feel they can live in an area. It is really necessary to do what happens in other counties automatically, tax collection causes houses to be sold to responsible owners.

Any where you live in Philly, you will deal with out of control PHA houses, city-owned vacant or blighted property, and other obstacles to healthy neighborhoods that the city allows. Why does the city allow this? It is not politically popular to be the discipline parent. No one wants to be the politician who says, no, it is not good for low income families to try to own houses that are 100 years old and need $150K in renovation to be fit to live in.

So which politicians do you feel good about? Who's office is the most responsive to working taxpayer? Who's just looking for easy votes? Who can speak to real solutions that work now? Who just regurgitates vague ideas and passes the buck?

Are you willing to volunteer to work on elections? Are you interested in going to community meetings? Do you want to attend zoning hearings? All of the issues your referring to take systemic involvement to fix. The schools will only be good if parents are there at every parent meeting, every community meeting, every politican's presentation, writing letters, faxes, emails.

Philly can afford good schools, but has to collect the taxes owed it, some half million dollars by entities which mostly have Center City mailing addresses or who are politically connected. Have you read the ethics referendum? Will you vote yes?

Why does Philly have so many properties that owe more than a decade of property taxes? Why do wealthy areas such as 19146 owe more in property taxes than some lower income zip codes? Why do you have to hold a gun to the city's head to get it to do its job?

If you buy in either zip, you are going to be dealing with all of this and more. Why not live where your efforts, which would be have to be equal in both places, will garner you more in the long run in value?

For property tax delinquency data, see:

http://www.hallwatch.org/proptax/abo.../stats/summary

For more on the ethics referendum, go to www.seventy.org

Crime, ethics, property taxes, and schools are more closely connected than it seems. Having a political status quo is not going to get Philly to where it needs to be, so if you have to commit to real work to live in Philly, why not live where your efforts will earn the greatest reward?