Anyone know what's going in across from Whole Foods on the 900 block of South Street?

Houses. Do a search - I think the thread about it is called something like "Construction on South between 9th and 10th".

Its not houses. Commercial on the first floor, condos or apts. on the 2nd floor. Jessme is right-there's a bunch of threads on this through previous posts over the past year.

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Cool - thanks for the reply. I went back and checked out the previous threads and folks had mentioned there may be a Borders or B&N going in at the retail space. Anyone able to confirm or deny?

Definitely not a Borders.

And yes, it's going to be 2 retail establishments and several townhouses.

No...that was one developer's smokescreen and more than a few wishful thinkers, nothing more.

When the variance was needed to let starsucks into the newer construction on 9th and south, next to crescent city, the developers told local community groups that a bookstore would only be attracted to move into the neighborhood if the starbucks was approved, and began citing demographic similarities.

Conversation like this was nothing more than a red herring-starbucks has switched their focus many moons ago, from being a niche business in selective markets(such as a book store) to the convenience store template which makes them want to be within a 5 block radius of every notable part of philadelphia.

I really don't think that south street has the population density requirements to support a major book store. Unlike center city, south street is landlocked by relatively sparse residential areas rather than offices and highrises which hold nearly 400,000 office workers daily.
Their population is also three times greater than our neighborhood.
Losing just about every major "chain store" on south street doesn't help to attract a national such as borders or B&N.

Pedestrian traffic maxes out at 4th and south, and declines drastically by the time you get to 9th and south; urban borders do no wish to be destination stores-instead, they want their key demographic to be built into what their research team calls "lifestyle centers" which includes certain types of stores within a prescribed area, as well as a certain customer with a certain income. There is a great compilation of articles regarding their desires here:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=69314

The one thing that always kills us is the 2000 census. When people study our numbers, they think our area code is filled with ramshackled homes and an average income roughly 30k and an average home price of about 75k!!! Needless to say, the neighborhood's grown a bit since then-but its going to take a new census for the rest of the world to realize it.

Borders, Barnes and Noble, et al. don't really care what area wants them-they only care if "x" amount of people are constantly within a certain radius so that they have a statistical certainty of business. Both book stores also prosper on the income from their beverage sales(B&N has starbucks in it, each Borders has a Seattle's Best in it)-since there are 5 coffee shops within a block of 9th and south, and plenty more within a few blocks, I don't think they would ever pick our area.

Waldenbooks, which is owned by borders, has less needs but is almost exclusively in suburban markets. B. Dalton is now owned by B&N, and is facing cutbacks rather than growth. I can't really think of anymore nationals that haven't been gobbled up by either borders or BN.

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But upper Germantown Ave does?

Wait the street that border's one of highest residential downtown's in the country and easily the densest low-rise area nationwide ( South Philly) has these problems?

A Borders is needed on South Street more then many realize. SS is lacking places that are large scale that people can waunder in where they don't need to purchase something. I know it sounds silly to hear that but something like that would give people space to relax between all the window shopping. Borders knows this. The Headhouse District needs to realize how important something like this is to the future of the street.

The biggest problem South Street has besides that is its changing but so many are holding it from doing so. I find it funny that if you advocate new sidewalks, trees, and lighting. Along with getting property owners to maintain and fix their buildings then you're trying to yuppify the street. :Huh: You can still keep something edgy without it going bad.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SFC28 Isn't it ironic that Mark B. Cohen, the guy who soaked the taxpayers for $22K on book store spending sprees, is a champion of libraries?

This message is hidden because jrouleau426 is on your ignore list.

hehe...sometimes I guess people just like to fight for the heck of it.

I appreciate how you belittle the location by generalizing it as "germantown ave", but the fact is that borders is almost directly in the middle of chestnut hill boundaries, on the intersection of two major roads(germantown ave and bethlehem pike)and as such operates to the equivalent of a suburban location, not an urban location.

Here's the most recent attainable demographics, even if one overlooks now outdated census data-
Our average household income-$50,903
Chestnut Hill-$112,107
Our current average home price-$293,709
Chestnut Hill-$664,678
On and On. Get it? Probably not.

The average borders store is 25,000 sq. ft. The average barnes and noble is under 24,000. Where's this building going to come from? To give you an idea of the needed size, the gap averages about 8500 sq. feet retail space and wholefood's average gross size is about 30,000 sq. ft.

So where's this Borders going? Maybe you can get the state to use eminent domain to get rid of a half-a-block. Maybe you could get rid of that community garden on 8th and south for a borders-the green thumb nimbys will love you for that one.

Of course, someone could build a heaven-forbid-multi-level block-the-sun commercial building on south street-but no developer will do that since residential space is garnering far more money/sq. foot than commercial space in this neighborhood and the nimby hurdles make it extremely expensive.
South Philadelphia's population via 2000 census was 162,683-which is comprised from the zipcodes 19145, 19146, 19147, and 19148. South Central LA is primarily bungalows and lowrise commercial, and has a population of 600,000, and a poplulation density of about 13,000 persq. mile-I don't recall hearing anything about a Borders Books or Barnes and Noble in South Central my loco homie.

A dense low-rise area means nothing. Borders and similar stores in urban markets want consumers with a certain purchasing power, and plenty of them within a certain proximity depending on the location. They don't go and ask opinionated yuppies in line at wholefoods for their two cents-instead, they rely on statistics and demographics. The stats may be wrong and the demographics may be outdated, but for conservative bean counters, this is the only efficient way to conduct business research.

Here's a quote from Border's vice president of development:
"There are a lot of different property types that appeal to us, and lifestyle centers are certainly one of them. But we weigh a number of
attributes. Depending on the site and the demographic makeup of an
area, we might do well in a power center with co-tenants like Bed Bath
& Beyond and Best Buy. In another area of the country we could drop a
store into a center that includes a Gap or a Pottery Barn," he says.”

Chestnut Hill has chico's and the gap, along with a sound foundation of independent shops geared towards uppermiddleclass shoppers. We've got a waning, dirty gap, a long gone baby gap, and 4 Nova Ice junk jewelry shops geared toward kids. They've got 2 Talbot's-we've got a half/dozen city blues. They've got a McDonald's, we've got a vacant McDonalds and vacant KFC. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with a certain type of store-but borders looks to have a certain surrounding spectrum of shops and we just don't have it.

The first statement is merely your opinion. As for the second sentence-I don't know too many corporations looking to build a store just so "people can waunder in where they don't need to purchase something." This is exactly why Border's relies on demographics rather than people's wishes.
And if those weary window shoppers need a place to sit we have a few coffee shops every square block-if they can't afford $1.50-$2 for a cup a joe to sit to their hearts content, they shouldn't be shopping.

And while I'm sure that you are worried about tired window shoppers, and not your own desires, I highly doubt there's enough window shoppers in that area since 7th and south is residential on one side, 8th and south is half covered by the community garden, and a majority of businesses between 7th-11th on south are service oriented, and therefore not conducive to "window shopping".

Yes, it does sound silly to hear.
According to the center city district's website, 1,700 pedestrians per hour walk past borders during lunchtime alone-I doubt I'd be able to count 1,700 pedestrians on a daily basis between 8th-9th on south.

What does this have to do with the price of tea in china? I don't recall anyone talking about the headhouse district. This statement sounds like some kind of uneducated slant. I was at several south street district meetings where they were talking about enticing bookstores onto south street. Three of the boardmembers are major landlords(with one of them being wholefood's landlord) and they try to get the bookstores in all the time, but as I already said a million times-neither the landlords nor the demographics nor your opinion seem to have the bookstores getting in line to move in.

I've got no idea what you are talking about. This strange comment makes me wonder if you just got home from tippin a few back. Who's trying to stop south street's growth? Aliens? Big Brother? The Man?

If anyone's trying to yuppify south street, they're surely losing. A closed Vespa shop, vacancies galore, Fatima's Hair Braiding rather than Pierre and Carlo, National Furniture Liquidators rather than Somnia. City Blue rather than Banana Republic.

The south street district found over 8 million to rennovate the street. The south street district found somewhere around 75,000 to rennovate bainbridge green. They're currently on plans to turn 2nd street between pine and south into a piazza setting with outdoor cafes, a permanent farmer's market, etc. Don't recall any other neighborhood group doing one project of this magnitude, let alone three. First their your problem, and now their your solution?

The south street area attracts businesses like gayle, ansill, southwark, etc. and neighborhood groups mess with them by holding up their liquor licenses for extended periods of time while asking such idiotic questions such as "what color are you painting your building?" or "are you putting a light outside?".

Hope everyone likes wholefoods-the neighbors protested and picketed the location in an attempt to prevent it from getting built since it would bring so much congestion and traffic.

No organization can tell a property owner to "fix their buildings". They can offer a facade grant to beautify the outside or properties. South Street did-they informed every single business and property owner about the easily attained matching-dollar grant. I received two letters about it, as well as a notice about it in a monthly newsletter sent to local businesses.

__________________
Peter Cetera:
Sometimes I just forget
Say things I might regret
It breaks my heart to see you crying

Read Alesis' last post, then re-read it. He makes some of the most cogent arguments I have read in some time regarding the slow to come changes in South Street's retail environment, as well as Center City's overall retail landscape. All of you who clamor for C & B, endlessly, and Apple, and whatever, ad nauseum...these are the very reasons that the large chains are still bypassing large swaths of Philadelphia. Personally, I could do without some of them, if all they are going to do is come in and need to tear down perfectly good, old buildings because "it doesn't fit their models" and, there are many local businesses offering what these retailers provide, and more. Regardless, the 2000 Census, continues to hurt Philadelphia. Once the 2010 census data is released, watch them trip over each other!

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yeah..

he does have a point.

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