Obama's Minister And Race - Page 11 - PhillyBlog

3rd&Brown · #**101** (**permalink**) 03-17-2008, 07:34 PM

And regardless of what anyone says, Obama's wife is a liability at this point.

I'm sure there are Republican think tanks with 6 inch thick files on her verbal gaffes (sp) in recent years, just waiting to unleash the fury in the general. What we've heard is probably just the tip of the iceberg.

Personally, I like her. But I can understand why others would not. Even as a diehard D who loathes George Bush, there are hundreds of occasions even in the most recent years where I've consciously thought of how lucky I am to be an American, even in these trying political times.

GOP65 · #**102** (**permalink**) 03-17-2008, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seand

As many as you and other McCain supporters can dig up but still considerably less than the dossiers you already have on hand for Hillary.

Really isn't much digging to do when these people are right in front of your face and in the limelight. One question, do you sleep with your blinders on too?

brooklyncat · #**103** (**permalink**) 03-17-2008, 09:13 PM

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There is nothing wrong with having strong respect for the feminists of the past. Believe it or not, I have the utmost respect for what they've accomplished. However, times change and maybe it's time to move beyond the victim stage.

Why is pointing out the FACTS of continued inequality being a victim? There's zero victimhood here.

How are we to move forward without recognizing where we are?

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So in my view, when there is ample evidence emerging that income inequality in modern day workforce is practically non-existant

But there ISN'T ample evidence to support that, or really any at all. There's a single dumb New York Times "trend" story. There's ample evidence that the gender pay gap continues, and will continue to be experienced even by the current crop of college and master's level graduates. You've decided to ignore it. so you can turn this into some kind of "victim politics." But it is untrue.

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maybe it's time to move beyond yelling "sexist"

I thought I was yelling "idiot!"

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and begin the next stage of feminist thought

.

Please enlighten us as to the "next stage" of feminist thought?

I agree that most recent female college grads aren't terribly aware of the inequities that still exist in the world and the workplace for them, or for the necessity of speaking up about them -- but that is a function of coming of age in a very protected environment, in an era of nearly unparalleled prosperity. The more experience they have of the world, the more they perceive it. I actually think this election has awakened a lot of younger women to the realities of gender politics. Who was it that said that women are the only group that becomes MORE radical as they get older?

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That's not to say that women don't face challenges, but you can't change the demands of raising a child.

The fact that it doesn't even occur to you that the subject under discussion is not the "demands of raising a child" but the question of WHO should bear the burden of those demands and HOW we as a society take on that responsibility speaks volumes.

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The fact that maternal leave happens to be inadequate in many cases, has nothing to do with sexism and everything to do with inadequate work benefits and safety nets that effect both genders, but happen to have a specific drawback for women because of their biology.

I never said maternal leave was the single problem or solution, you did. It's one tiny part of the overall problem. That you keep coming back to that shows how incredibly limited your thinking is on the subject.

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I've worked in female dominated workplaces my whole life and most of my co-worker would be insulted if someone considered them at a disadvantage because of their gender.

Of course they would, that's insulting. They're NOT disadvantaged because of their gender. They have many advantages because of their gender. We were, of course, talking about the gender pay gap, which is not about individuals but about society as a whole.

And if you ask women in the workforce whether they had to make compromises that their male colleagues didn't, the majority of them would say that they did. That's what inequity is all about. Recognizing it doesn't make you a victim. It makes you a fighter.

DeeDee Myers actually had a very interesting piece tonight on this on NPR: http://www.time.com/time/arts/articl...718519,00.html

MayfairMeat · #**104** (**permalink**) 03-17-2008, 10:13 PM

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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

What gets me about Obama supporters is the degree to which they *hate* Hillary Clinton. I mean, we're all Democrats, right?

Nope. Libertarian. But like most Ls, I'm forced to divide my votes between candidates since there's not enough Libertees out there yet to garner a large enough popularity draw.

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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Number 1. This campaign has not been all that negative.

This is why tomorrow is crucial for Barack.

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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Number 2. I haven't heard a single anti-Hillary statement from an Obama supporter which cites policy differences. Most simply don't *like* her and vehemently go out of their way to cast her in a negative light, which smacks of sexism to me.

No, I saw her husband's Administration, and she's got a lot of those former officials in her campaign working on it right now.

Bill Clinton's Administration is what GAVE you GWB. Had the Clintons, both Bill and Hillary, had not energized the Republican Party with their ineptness in 1992, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

And by the way, I'll forgive Hillary for Travelgate and Filegate about the same time I forgive Nixon, RIP, for Watergate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

To me, it's like Obama is the guy who ran for class president and told everybody they'd get an extra 15 minutes for lunch and Clinton is the nerd who ran for class president to expand the offering of AP classes and to incorporate a community service component into the graduation requirement, and we're beating her up?

Nice touch. Florida Democrat leaders just decided today that re-running the primary is just about impossible (see CNN). Doesn't mean that it's the last word--but it looks dimmer as each day goes by and the election offices aren't doing much right now.

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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Number 3. If Obama can't handle Hillary's "attacks", he surely won't stand up to the Karl Rove-esque swiftboats when they start coming his way. I mean, really. Give me a break.

Hillary hasn't had the chance yet to criticize Obama over Wright. ABCNews was the one who broke the story on the Friday 6:30PM news and it's been a firestorm since then.

She'll have opportunity to bash Obama on Tuesday.

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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

The general is going to go negative no matter what. Say what you like, but that's what happens when 527s are legal and raising money independently.

I've only seen a couple healthcare 527 ads so far. You will probably see the ads spring up about a week before Apr 22... so the ads don't get stale in voters minds.

Either way, Obama is projected to lose Pennsylvania as it is. I don't think he will win this state. But that doesn't matter; what matters is what happens in Denver.

And when Hillary wins either unfairly or through lawyers, you can spend all summer trying to explain to me why I shouldn't vote for McCain.

MayfairMeat · #**105** (**permalink**) 03-17-2008, 10:20 PM

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Originally Posted by GOP65

I'm not sure, but it appears it did benefit his friend and staffer Jim Crown in the past. Legally but also business as usual as opposed to "change" and transparency. It's just odd to me that a suppossed squeaky clean candidate like Mr Obama's memory always seems to be clouded when it involves his unsavory friends like Mr Rezko and the Rev Wright, wonder how many more of these types will come about in the next few weeks and months.

I'm totally ready to support your next President, GOP... as gay as I am.

Remember Herbert Hoover?

While we're scouring our couches looking for spare change to pay the light bill--we'll remember what this debate in 2008 was all about:

Obama is not black.
Obama hates white people and wants them all dead.
Obama cozies up to sleazy developers.

Hillary will have amnesia about healthcare (AGAIN), and why...

Hillary's contributors are people like Aetna, Bristol-Myers, RxRMA...

What she did with the FBI files in her office [what were they doing in HER office, and why was almost all of them on Republicans?!],

Why she fired the non-political Travel office and replaced them with friends of hers... illegally... and exactly WHO gave her the power to do this? We didn't elect her at all during those years.

WHY did she say nothing about the death of one of her partners... who had an office NEXT DOOR from hers, who filed the fraudulent tax returns for Whitewater (her failed land transaction)... and mysteriously "committed suicide" leaving no note?

Why McCain was absent during the S&L scandal [oh wait, I forgot... he was involved in it and he was censured by the Senate]

Yeah, there's some squeaky-clean candidates out there.

GOP65 · #**106** (**permalink**) 03-17-2008, 11:04 PM

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Originally Posted by EastChestnut

Yeah, there's some squeaky-clean candidates out there.

I don't believe I ever said there were any, we're just adding another one to the list IMO(it's part of the job at times) . Unfortunately and sometimes properly your judged by the company you keep and do business with(Hsu/Keating). I think he's doing the right thing adressing this but I'll reserve judgement until I hear what he says and how he says it, I just think it should have been sooner. And kill the Hoover references, of course the economy's tanking it but maybe you should seek a more respected professionals opinion on the economy over Chuck Schumers.

MarketStEl · #**107** (**permalink**) 03-17-2008, 11:06 PM

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Originally Posted by brooklyncat

PS where is that essay?

Here you go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

What gets me about Obama supporters is the degree to which they *hate* Hillary Clinton. I mean, we're all Democrats, right?

Number 1. This campaign has not been all that negative.

Say what you want, but this has been a relatively tame race so far. The "kitchen sink" approach that everyone is talking about wasn't all that severe...hardly qualifies as a swiftboat attack.

And, don't you want Obama to be vetted now, as opposed to in the general? I mean, don't you want to know about his pastor now so that you have time to change your mind if you really care, and if not, at a minimum, it gives Obama time to develop a response strategy? If he survives this stuff now, it only makes him a more formidable candidate in the general.

Number 2. I haven't heard a single anti-Hillary statement from an Obama supporter which cites policy differences. Most simply don't *like* her and vehemently go out of their way to cast her in a negative light, which smacks of sexism to me. Most Clinton supporters I know cite policy as the main reason for supporting Clinton above Obama. Most Obama supporters cite...his personality? And *dislike* of her?

To me, it's like Obama is the guy who ran for class president and told everybody they'd get an extra 15 minutes for lunch and Clinton is the nerd who ran for class president to expand the offering of AP classes and to incorporate a community service component into the graduation requirement, and we're beating her up?

Number 3. If Obama can't handle Hillary's "attacks", he surely won't stand up to the Karl Rove-esque swiftboats when they start coming his way. I mean, really. Give me a break.

The general is going to go negative no matter what. Say what you like, but that's what happens when 527s are legal and raising money independently.

And I agree with you about how it's better that Obama run the gauntlet now than face it for the first time in the fall. He should be able to learn from his experience here, and that will enable him to fend off attacks from McCain and right-wing 527s more effectively.

And your point about the real difference between Obama and Clinton is the main reason I won't hesitate to vote for her should she become the Democratic nominee. Those of us who believe the GOP should have to pay for its mangling of the struggle against the jihadists, lying us into an unnecessary war, shredding of the Constitution in the name of the War on Terror and tossing out its own principles (except that of getting rich folks off the tax hook) in the pursuit of power ought not consider voting for its candidate this time around simply because our guy or gal didn't win, regardless how we may feel about John McCain as a person.

GOP65 · #**108** (**permalink**) 03-17-2008, 11:24 PM

Hillary's in town tomorrow too, wonder if it's more then just a coincidence. Just imagine that warm fuzzy historical Unity ticket coming to fruition right here in Philly.

MayfairMeat · #**109** (**permalink**) 03-17-2008, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOP65

I don't believe I ever said there were any, we're just adding another one to the list IMO(it's part of the job at times) . Unfortunately and sometimes properly your judged by the company you keep and do business with(Hsu/Keating). I think he's doing the right thing adressing this but I'll reserve judgement until I hear what he says and how he says it, I just think it should have been sooner. And kill the Hoover references, of course the economy's tanking it but maybe you should seek a more respected professionals opinion on the economy over Chuck Schumers.

It's not Chuck I was listening to, it was ALAN GREENSPAN (Worst trouble we've had since WWII)

I just rewound back a few more decades to Hoover, who did get a lot of blame for making the Depression worse. To be fair, Roosevelt also make it worse during his 1st term.

GOP65 · #**110** (**permalink**) 03-17-2008, 11:50 PM

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Originally Posted by EastChestnut

It's not Chuck I was listening to, it was ALAN GREENSPAN (Worst trouble we've had since WWII)

He's what, about 10 years older then McCain? How could you trust and rely on a guy that age?