Condos at New Market site on Headhouse Square - Page 2 - PhillyBlog

cc · #11 (**permalink**) 04-26-2005, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Londoner

i feel that being a nimby is a terrible losing battle, the proverbial slippery slope. a nimby is willing to spend a ton of money fighting against a project. if they win, that means the developer got fed up, abandoned the project, and left town. then, another developer comes along, buys the parcel of land, sees that philly is in a "hot" real estate boom and creates plans for a new building--this time 20 stories taller than the last one. so, barely on the heels of celebrating their recent victory, the nimby's are back out on the front line spending money and wasting dozens of manhours to oppose this new project. after 3 years of hassle, the nimby's win again, and the developer backs out. another one comes along (as they always do), and sees that the height allowance on the property is 10 stories and decides to build a 9 story parking garage/monstrosity that will increase traffic/pollution/noise and decrease the neighborhoods likeability. the nimby's cant fight this one...and so after 9 years of legal wrangling, thousands of dollars spent, what do they get? an ugly parking garage instead of a condo/hotel tower.

the fact is that as philly's urban renewal continues, ALL of these lots in CC are going to be built on eventually, and the height of the buildings is really only determined by the state of the market. the hotter the market? the higher the building. these lots may not fill in for another decade, but at some point, a building WILL occupy these grasslots. anyways, it always seems that as a nimby, you are going to eventually lose. you fight one project and win, another one comes along. as we are seeing now, the nimby's that won their fights a few years ago are now facing the prospect of an even HIGHER buildings being built on the plots instead...

they fought 30 stories, and now, because the developer is old college buddies with someone on the zoning committee, they are going to get 52 stories...

oh well. hopefully the big holes on market and penn square are filled in with a nice new building before this real estate cycle slows to a screeching hault. i should also caveat this post by saying that i dont believe building anything that is ever proposed is right. i want the best to be built in this city.

Not to categorize all NIMBYs (so Jayfar, don't get personally offended if you're rading this), but I think what drives ALOT of NIMBYs is that they are control freaks. They like to have a say in everything and when a developer with more funds wants to put up something without getting their permission first it really p!sses them off and they try everything to stop that. A huge part of why there is so much NIMBYism in Center City and in University City is teh alrge population of college educated people. That's a good thing, overall, but it also means that there's a higher concentration of big egos. In Manhattan and central Chicago where there are much higher concentrations, the would-be NIMBYs get their egos stoked by making big bucks in corproations. In Philadelphia where there are far fewer big revenue corporations, teh NIMBYs get their egos stoked by being the stick in the mud. Its empowering to them to be able to be part of a small group of people who put a halt to a multi-million dollar project.

Anyway, beacuse what drives NIMBYism is egos, the NIMBYs ahve an instinctive will to oppose jsut about anything they can. The fact that not too many 4-story faux town houses are being opposed is only because the NIMBYs have no ground to stand on to oppose them since those buildings fit within the zoning rules (that is, unless, there is some variance those buildings require and then the NIMBYs get all over that). If the NIMBYs had ground to stand on, they'd oppose those developments as well. They jsut like opposing things. Their "professional againsters".

cc · #12 (**permalink**) 04-26-2005, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pacino

Symphony House is underway

So that gives Philadelphia 2 (3, if you count Waterfront Square), tall(-ish) residential buildings in the last 20 years or so.

cc · #13 (**permalink**) 04-26-2005, 07:57 AM

[quote=Cochise]Thats a great point CC, I think it was Inga Saffron who mentioned there are plans and blueprints for 2 dozen signifigant condo towers in center city, some are pie in the sky and will never see the light of day. But it really is tragic that only the St.James has been built to this point. QUOTE]

The people in this town who are so afraid of the "boom" need to go to jsut about any other major first world city to see what a real residential boom is like. Philadelphia may be "booming" compared to Detroit (if that) but to have just one tall residentail tower built in the last 20-25 years is completely lame and to have the NIMBYs all gearing up for WWIII because of this fake "boom" is lamer.

Then again, as I aid in the other post, its not reality that drives this. Rather, its ego. What else can explain that guy opening saying that he's willing to put up $100K of his own money to fight the project - a project that very well may never see the light of day in any event. He obviously wanted to get it across "I have 100K that I'm willing to donate to the community to fight this project and now you can all kiss up to me."

BC · #14 (**permalink**) 04-26-2005, 10:03 AM

What's great about this loser spending $100Gs fighting the New Market project is that it's $100G less that can be spent fighting against a more realistic project elsewhere that has more of a chance of succeeding anyway. Let the NIMBYs concentrate their resources in dumb-ass lawsuits like this.

cc · #15 (**permalink**) 04-26-2005, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BC

What's great about this loser spending $100Gs fighting the New Market project is that it's $100G less that can be spent fighting against a more realistic project elsewhere that has more of a chance of succeeding anyway. Let the NIMBYs concentrate their resources in dumb-ass lawsuits like this.

Yeah, that's true! Maybe this should be a new strategy developers should take. They should all band together and propose outlandish developments somewhere like a 100-story condo tower at 3rd and Pine and get all the NIMBYs worked up and spending all their disposable income fighting it. Meanwhile they'll propose other projects and get those to sail through since all NIMBY anger and resources will be concentrated on the fake project. The NIMBYs, of course, will never catch on that a 100-story tower at 3rd and Pine might be a farce since they instinctively want to fight everything. It'll be the perfect ruse.

dracula · #16 (**permalink**) 04-26-2005, 11:13 AM

a problem with building in that area (or anywhere in Philly it seems) is that you might have to have that amount of floors to make it worth the investment, since properties are so OUTRAGEOUSLY over inflated.

so the Nimby's would prefer the big vacant hole that has been there for HOW MANY YEARS? or the inevitable parking lot that will be there instead?

cc · #17 (**permalink**) 04-26-2005, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dracula

a problem with building in that area (or anywhere in Philly it seems) is that you might have to have that amount of floors to make it worth the investment, since properties are so OUTRAGEOUSLY over inflated.

so the Nimby's would prefer the big vacant hole that has been there for HOW MANY YEARS? or the inevitable parking lot that will be there instead?

That's the ugly cycle that exists here. These ugly plots are only worthwhile to developers if they can maximize by putting up a decent number of floors. The city's antiquated zoning code (develoepd during a time of low demand in Center City), however, basically forbids building anything tall outside of certain very restricted areas (msot of which are more desirable for commercial use than residential use). The zoning board seems to understand how outdated the zoning code is and is granted reasonable variances. However, the NIMBYs latch onto the zoning code like its set in stone and they fight tooth and nail to undermine the project.

As for what the NIMBYs prefer, as I've surmised, many of them are just "professional againsters". I'm not saying all are. Some may have legitimate reasons. But it sounds like alot of them just like to oppose things because it gives them attention and it makes them feel a part of some cause (certainly the couple basically boasting that they are willing to flush 100K down the toilet for this effort is loving the attention). In other cities, these people might not have a leg to stand on. However, in Philadelphia with its Byzantine zoning code that allows for certain heights on certain fractions of specific blocks and other heights at others, the NIMBYs can pick and choose all kinds of battles under zoning pretexts.

At the end, the NIMBYs could care less if the New Market site remains an ugly empty lot or turns itno a garage. Its the battle that drives them. The result of the battle is not something they care about.

I don't think we'll ever stop the NIMBY issue until we have what this city REALLY needs - zoning reform.

BC · #18 (**permalink**) 04-26-2005, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cc

I don't think we'll ever stop the NIMBY issue until we have what this city REALLY needs - zoning reform.

Hear hear!

SPM · #19 (**permalink**) 04-26-2005, 08:58 PM

BC,CC& Londoner:

Where have you guys been for the past few years when the city needed you?----you guys see the picture for what it really is---

My only hope is that the strength of the real estate market (that is---attracting capital here) will bust up some of the nimby-network, and lead to more investment in new towers here before this cycle runs out. Then we can have 10 years of nothing and the NIMBY gang will be happy (they'll get to complain about owners who don't build anything on their property during that period)
---I love the idea of announcing the 100 story tower at 3rd and Pine (you forgot to mention that it would have 30 floors of parking and no retail)...can we get the press release out?

loft-man · #20 (**permalink**) 04-26-2005, 09:16 PM

There are more big buildings and towers to come...worry not.

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