I like the idea of the trolley running up Torresdale Ave. However there was never a lot of local support in Tacony for reviving the trolley, mainly I think due to the memory of the old 56 and many of the problems it had. I realize modern light rail is different and more dependable but many of the local residents just remember the old trolley. I would not mind seeing a trackless trolley on Torresdale Ave, just like the 66 on Frankford ave. It would be good for residents because of less noise and air pollution. It would also give the Northeast 3 trackless trolley routes.

Whats wrong with a trackless trolly along Torresdale? They run by the electric cables above and these buses can move to the left or right if needed.


I'm not a big fan of the old tracked trolleys. When I was in High School in Little Flower, a schoolmate stepped from the 56 Trolly and was run down by a driver trying to pass on the right side of the trolly. She died on the spot, I believe.

I'm happy to notice the businesses along the route instead of having to watch out for pot-holes.

I'd be all for that; I like trolleybuses too. I don't see it happening any time soon, though. Definitely not until the routes with existing wires are re-equiped with trolleybuses, at least.


That's too bad, but it sounds like more a reason to not be a fan of automobiles. There's no reason a trolley route could not be outfitted with curb bump-outs at the stops, like the Portland Streetcar is, shown here:





No way a car can pass on the right with those!

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When life throws pies at you, make yourself a tall, cool glass of piemonade!

Wow, everything about those Portland pictures is great. Thanks for sharing.

I like the look of the trolley itself, and the routing of the bike lane to the sidewalk at the corner is good for most everybody (except possibly people about to board a trolley).

One night thing about parts of Torresdale Ave right now is that there are no overhead wires. This would be lost with reintroduction of a trolley.

If the 56 was reintroduced as light rail, it would be interesting to consider extending it to run all the way up Cottman, instead of terminating there, to a new turnaround at Fox Chase Cancer Center (and as suggested by Krewstown adding the current Fox Chase bus turnaround to the war memorial park).

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All comments made by me on his board are given freely and probably worth what you paid for them.

No slight taken at all; I welcome knowledge.

I recently read a novel by Frank Norris about Chicago circa 1900 (written then) and from that I got the impression that the trolleys were part of the design since the city was growing like mad at exactly that time. A modern novelist who reminds of Frank Norris is Tom Wolfe. I think in 100 years, people will read Tom Wolfe and get a great feeling what life is like now; Norris gives that feel for 100 years ago. Something in that novel made me think that city's growth spurt and the trolley lines were mostly built at the same time.

When I last in Denver back in April, I was pondering their lack of mass transit and wondering how people got around back in the day. We took a surface street in a neighborhood of cool Victorian era houses to avoid a highway at rush hour, and I realized, "dang! they had trolleys that ran down these streets - in fact these streets are perfectly designed for them, just like Chicago!". Now I could be wrong but what that is why I thought that.

The best public transporation system I have encountered in the USA is in Ocean City MD. Why is it great? Low price (ride all day for under $5) and extreme convience. It runs 24 hours a day and even at low-volume times, the wait is only 15 minutes max. However while waiting I was lamenting to myself, "what a shame all they have are busses, rail would be so much cooler". Then I realized what an dope I was being and saw that a well run bus line can be better than a rail system. Replacing the busses in OCMD wouldn't make it any more effecient, but it would require huge infastructure investments that really aren't necessary.

I'm a huge supporter of public transportation and walkable communities. I use SEPTA frequently and I have always chosen to live in a walkable community. But I'm also a realist; busses aren't worse than a beat up old trolley system that is run half-assed. Torresdale Ave is currently well paved, has bike lanes, parking, no overhead wires in places, and cars and busses are able to share the road. It's a street that works pretty well, better than what it had before. Not that I am against the resumption of trolley service on Torresdale Ave, but realistically, is SEPTA ever going to run them at a frequency that would make the investment worthwhile? The non-rush hour service on the 66 is horrific.

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"Things are starting to get interesting right about now"

All comments made by me on his board are given freely and probably worth what you paid for them.

I'm curious why you say "their lack of mass transit." They have the 16th St. transit mall, which works exceptionally well, in addition to their light rail system, which currently consists of two lines that share a trunk. Next year, a new line is opening, and a year ago voters approved the FasTracks plan, which will result in the following:



Granted, they currently have only two lines and the bus mall, but it's still far more than what many other cities around the U.S. have.

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When life throws pies at you, make yourself a tall, cool glass of piemonade!

I should have phrased that differently; I meant long established public transportation, like our blue, orange or green lines. The light rail was quite new a few years ago and didn't go many places.

The FREE 16th Street bus loop is a great thing, a lot of people use it.

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"Things are starting to get interesting right about now"

All comments made by me on his board are given freely and probably worth what you paid for them.

I feel a visit to Denver reveals a metropolitan area that is so conceptualized for the automobile, that regardless of how many light rail lines are built, they will never truly put a dent in traffic, etc.

CIties like Philadelphia are so used to having public transit readily available that they take for granted the loss of certain modes of it. Places like Denver have a political momentum to create more and more light rail - unfortunately, taking years and years to construct.

Particularly indicative of the climate of Denver urban development and tastes is the Denver Tech. Center along I-25. I found this one of the most irritating urban office parks ever. It simply goes on for miles, and it becomes so easy to see why traffic is so painfully bad there.

Traffic is bad in Philadelphia, too, but frankly, not so bad as most metropolitan areas of its size. The Schuylkill is so bad because geography does not permit much expansion of the road. I find this a good thing because widening the highway isn't some snap decision thought to solve problems.

Also, lucky for urbanites, they never built even a fraction of the urban freeways that were slated for Philadelphia. There is a website, perhaps called phillyroads.com?, where they show all the routes that were planned for highways. It was a nightmare we luckily avoided. Indeed, except for the Roosevelt Expressway and pieces of I-95, virtually no city communities were torn apart for urban expressways, ala New York or Chicago.

Philadelphia defies so many trends good and bad, so perhaps it's no shock that it simply cannot make trolleys or light rail a growing presence again in its transit system.

However, this is a very important point, SEPTA went too far last week when it paved over a stretch of Route 23 tracks in Mount Airy. Wrong community to assume will sit back and take it. They stirred up a hornet's nest there. I look forward to helping or watching the fight to revive those tracks when PENNDOT rebuilds most of Germantown Avenue in 2007-2008 (they claim they'll maintain the trolley tracks regardless of SEPTA's demolition by neglect policies).

Ocean City, MD transit? Oh, the drunk bus! Yes, That's pretty convient. Simple, reliable, predictable, and come June, full of drunk high-school grads.

SEPTA needs a little more than new leadership, it needs structural reform. City Transit and Regional Rail need to be seperate entirely entities.

Here's the Delaware Valley Association of Railroad Passenger's "SEPTA- A Case for Reform Repot":
http://www.dvarp.org/reform/case_for_reform.pdf
I haven't read the whole thing but from what I have it's interesting.

From what I read here:
http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic...er=asc&start=0
there's an order for trackless trolleys out but they wont be coming back to south Philly, only the Northeast.

Did South Philly have a trackless trolley line? The ones in the Northeast, routes 66 and 59 are trackless trolley. They are running buses during the terminal restoration and the purchase of the new trackless trolleys.