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Old 06-01-2008, 06:07 PM
pcounselor pcounselor is offline
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Once again Florida has been disenfranchised, in 2000 by the republicans and now by my own party who reduced their voting power by half and divided their delegates even though they voted for the person they wanted.
Puerto Rico which Clinton won and which four times has voted against Statehood opting instead to maintain their independence has more delegates in the Dem. party than some States.
Michigan where Obama opted not to run has been told half it's delegates will be given to him even though they overwhelmingly chose Clinton.
And for the Dem. party to discriminate against 46 other States by saying only four States can hold a primary early is to me against the Constitution of the U.S. civil rights anti-discrimination laws.
It no longer matters which one wins the dem. nomination I will not waste my time in the November Election casting a vote that I have been shown doesn't count.
Voting for the lesser of two evils is no longer tolerable. I firmly believe that Pa. along with the other 49 States should have a joint Nationwide primary where all voters, dem., rep. and independent can vote for any presidential candidate. In this way from the very beginning of the presidential race; if I like Romney, or Peroit, or Kennedy I can vote for the candidate of my choice.
It is time we the people took back the power of Democracy because we have bit by bit been removed from the decision process.
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Old 06-01-2008, 09:22 PM
laserm2r laserm2r is offline
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In deciding to seat the delagations from Flordia and Michigan, but only counting the delagate votes as 1/2 for Flordia and giving delagates to Obama when he wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan speaks to the hipocracy that runs rampant within the Democrat party.

Here we have a party, who in 2000 clamored that ALL votes should be counted in Flordia, now saying that votes cast by citizens of Flordia should only count as 1/2 votes. The last time this happened was when our Constitution was drafted and Southern slave states got to count their slaves as 3/5 of one person. It took a Civil War to fix that mess.

The Democrat party has brought this issue onto itself and deserves all the grief it gets from its supporters. Should Obama go on to win the election in November, he should carry the same title that many placed on President Bush when he was selected and not elected.
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Old 06-01-2008, 09:39 PM
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raider.adam raider.adam is offline
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Originally Posted by laserm2r View Post
The last time this happened was when our Constitution was drafted and Southern slave states got to count their slaves as 3/5 of one person. It took a Civil War to fix that mess.
Well, if the slave states had their way, they would have had slaves count as a full person (and still not vote). The North wanted them to count as zero.

The 3/5ths was in regards to determining population for Representative districts in Congress, not right to vote. Slaves still couldn't vote.

Just a historical clarification.
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Old 06-01-2008, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by pcounselor View Post
Voting for the lesser of two evils is no longer tolerable. I firmly believe that Pa. along with the other 49 States should have a joint Nationwide primary where all voters, dem., rep. and independent can vote for any presidential candidate.
I'm OK with open primaries but your statement here kind of indicates how unfamiliar you are with the way the partisan ward structure works in PA and Philly, unfortunately. Also ironcally the people most likely to agree with your general viewpoint among Dems in Philadelphia are probably more likely to be Obama supporters, whereas politicos more likely to challenge the idea of open primaries amongst local Dems are probably more likely to be Clinton supporters - at least in my experience. Rep. Cohen might be one notable exception.

Also I thought the Clinton line was that open primaries don't really count because they aren't "real" Dems - since Obama generally did much better in open primary states.

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Michigan where Obama opted not to run has been told half it's delegates will be given to him even though they overwhelmingly chose Clinton.
Wait how do you say with a straight face that MI was an even remotely fair election if most of the candidates complied with the rules and removed their names from the ballot. Clearly an election where the voters are told ahead of time it won't count and the vast majority of candidates remove their name from the ballot is not a valid gauge of the voter's intent. The problem with Mi was not that Edwards, Dodd, Obama, Richards, and Biden pulled their names from the ballot. The problem is that Hillary Clinton kept her name on. That's what kept MI's Democratic Party from being able to stage a revote.
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Last edited by seand : 06-01-2008 at 09:50 PM.
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Old 06-02-2008, 09:43 AM
pcounselor pcounselor is offline
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I'm OK with open primaries ....
Wait how do you say with a straight face that MI was an even remotely fair election if most of the candidates complied with the rules and removed their names from the ballot. Clearly an election where the voters are told ahead of time it won't count and the vast majority of candidates remove their name from the ballot is not a valid gauge of the voter's intent. The problem with Mi was not that Edwards, Dodd, Obama, Richards, and Biden pulled their names from the ballot. The problem is that Hillary Clinton kept her name on. That's what kept MI's Democratic Party from being able to stage a revote.
Could it be Clinton kept her name on the ballot because she knew the Dem. Party Rule dictating when States were allowed to hold a primary and a further rule promoting discrimnation in that it allowed 4 States to hold early primaries while penalizing any other State that did were both rules that violate the United States Constitution and when challanged in court will be ruled illegal and against the Dem. Party's own bylaws which is to uphold our Constitution?
We the people need to insist that a National Primary Election Day become law. Where all the voters can vote for any candidate on the slate regardless of party affiliation. Where people can vote for whomever they feel is the best from the very beginning of the election process instead of being left with a choice of the lesser of two evils.
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