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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-01-2004, 10:01 AM
owlbrez owlbrez is offline
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Default Bush or Kerry: Who Is The Real Flip-Flopper?

Bush said finding Osama was a top priority; then he said it wasn't. Kerry said he would never appoint a pro-life judge; then he said he might; then at the last debate he said he won't. This election is not about the lesser of two evils but the lesser of two flip-floppers:











If by November you're still undecided, vote your pocketbook! (That is, take out a coin and flip!)

;-)
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Old 06-01-2004, 05:39 PM
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Default Bush vs Bush

http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.../jon_7131.html

The end of the video is special for RLC.
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Old 06-01-2004, 06:02 PM
rlc rlc is offline
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Great video. The only problem is that a little thing called 9/11/01 happened which changed the entire world and how we must defend our homeland and our interests abroad...

I agree with the Teddy quote and thanks for posting it.

Gotta love that newly energized Gore as well!
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Old 06-02-2004, 04:11 PM
chrissayer chrissayer is offline
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Even post 9/11.

Bush said he would throw out all the Baathists - oh, he needs them to fight his dirty little war so they can come back into the Army.

Bush said he didn't want to turn over authority to the UN - oh, he needed Brahimi to tell him who to appoint to the top positions.

Ironically, Bush on Iraq has now flipflopped so that most can't find any difference between his position and that of Sen. John Kerry - who has held the same position for the past 18 months.
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Old 06-03-2004, 10:15 AM
rlc rlc is offline
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Bush said he would throw out all the Baathists - oh, he needs them to fight his dirty little war so they can come back into the Army.
Chris Bush did throw out all of the Baathists. Not sure what you mean here. Did he let some of the people from the party come back after they had been vetted and the hard core Saddam supporters had been weeded out? Sure he did as many were forced to join the party just to make a living.

Quote:
Bush said he didn't want to turn over authority to the UN - oh, he needed Brahimi to tell him who to appoint to the top positions.
Bush has not turned over authority to the UN. Has he worked with the UN, sure he has and he said that from the start. Do you forget that Bush went to the UN to get the 1441 resoultion??? Bush never said he was going into Iraq unilaterally that is just what liberals like you want to claim and then when he continues to build the coalition you blast him for that. You can't have it both ways...
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Old 06-03-2004, 10:32 AM
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I have not seen the video on the above link, but I have heard more than enough lies and propaganda from the Bush spin machine.

Here is an article on the recent negative and hypocritical attacks that Bush has made on John Kerry:

Quote:
From Bush, Unprecedented Negativity
Scholars Say Campaign Is Making History With Often-Misleading Attacks

By Dana Milbank and Jim VandeHei
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, May 31, 2004; Page A01

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

It was a typical week in the life of the Bush reelection machine.

Last Monday in Little Rock, Vice President Cheney said Democratic presidential candidate John F. Kerry "has questioned whether the war on terror is really a war at all" and said the senator from Massachusetts "promised to repeal most of the Bush tax cuts within his first 100 days in office."

On Tuesday, President Bush's campaign began airing an ad saying Kerry would scrap wiretaps that are needed to hunt terrorists.

The same day, the Bush campaign charged in a memo sent to reporters and through surrogates that Kerry wants to raise the gasoline tax by 50 cents.

On Wednesday and Thursday, as Kerry campaigned in Seattle, he was greeted by another Bush ad alleging that Kerry now opposes education changes that he supported in 2001.

The charges were all tough, serious -- and wrong, or at least highly misleading. Kerry did not question the war on terrorism, has proposed repealing tax cuts only for those earning more than $200,000, supports wiretaps, has not endorsed a 50-cent gasoline tax increase in 10 years, and continues to support the education changes, albeit with modifications.

Scholars and political strategists say the ferocious Bush assault on Kerry this spring has been extraordinary, both for the volume of attacks and for the liberties the president and his campaign have taken with the facts. Though stretching the truth is hardly new in a political campaign, they say the volume of negative charges is unprecedented -- both in speeches and in advertising.

Three-quarters of the ads aired by Bush's campaign have been attacks on Kerry. Bush so far has aired 49,050 negative ads in the top 100 markets, or 75 percent of his advertising. Kerry has run 13,336 negative ads -- or 27 percent of his total. The figures were compiled by The Washington Post using data from the Campaign Media Analysis Group of the top 100 U.S. markets. Both campaigns said the figures are accurate.

The assault on Kerry is multi-tiered: It involves television ads, news releases, Web sites and e-mail, and statements by Bush spokesmen and surrogates -- all coordinated to drive home the message that Kerry has equivocated and "flip-flopped" on Iraq, support for the military, taxes, education and other matters.

"There is more attack now on the Bush side against Kerry than you've historically had in the general-election period against either candidate," said University of Pennsylvania professor Kathleen Hall Jamieson, an authority on political communication. "This is a very high level of attack, particularly for an incumbent."

Brown University professor Darrell West, author of a book on political advertising, said Bush's level of negative advertising is already higher than the levels reached in the 2000, 1996 and 1992 campaigns. And because campaigns typically become more negative as the election nears, "I'm anticipating it's going to be the most negative campaign ever," eclipsing 1988, West said. "If you compare the early stage of campaigns, virtually none of the early ads were negative, even in '88."

In terms of the magnitude of the distortions, those who study political discourse say Bush's are no worse than those that have been done since, as Stanford University professor Shanto Iyengar put it, "the beginning of time."

Kerry, too, has made his own misleading statements and exaggerations. For example, he said in a speech last week about Iraq: "They have gone it alone when they should have assembled a whole team." That is not true. There are about 25,000 allied troops from several nations, particularly Britain, in Iraq. Likewise, Kerry said several times last week that Bush has spent $80 million on negative and misleading ads -- a significant overstatement. Kerry also suggested several times last week that Bush opposed increasing spending on several homeland defense programs; in fact, Bush has proposed big increases in homeland security but opposed some Democratic attempts to increase spending even more in some areas. Kerry's rhetoric at rallies is also often much harsher and more personal than Bush's.

But Bush has outdone Kerry in the number of untruths, in part because Bush has leveled so many specific charges (and Kerry has such a lengthy voting record), but also because Kerry has learned from the troubles caused by Al Gore's misstatements in 2000. "The balance of misleading claims tips to Bush," Jamieson said, "in part because the Kerry team has been more careful."

Attacks Get Early Start


The attacks have started unusually early -- even considering the accelerated primary calendar -- in part because Bush was responding to a slew of attacks on his record during the Democratic primaries, in which the rivals criticized him more than one another. And because the Bush campaign has spent an unprecedented sum on advertising at this early stage of the campaign, "the average voter is getting a much more negative impression," said Ken Goldstein, who tracks political advertising at the University of Wisconsin at Madison.

From the president and Cheney down to media aides stationed in every battleground state and volunteers who dress up like Flipper the flip-flopping dolphin at rallies, the Bush campaign relentlessly portrays Kerry as elitist, untrustworthy, liberal and a flip-flopper on major issues. This campaign is persistent and methodical, and it often revs up on Monday mornings with the strategically timed release of ads or damaging attacks on Kerry, including questioning medical and service records in Vietnam and his involvement in the peace movement afterward. Often, they knock Kerry off message and force him to deflect personal questions.

Sometimes the charges ring true. Last week, Kerry told NBC: "I'm for the Patriot Act, but I'm not for the Patriot Act the way they abuse the Constitution." That brought to mind Kerry's much-mocked contention in March on Iraq spending: "I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it."

But often they distort Kerry's record and words to undermine the candidate or reinforce negative perceptions of him.

One constant theme of the Bush campaign is that Kerry is "playing politics" with Iraq, terrorism and national security. Earlier this month, Bush-Cheney Chairman Marc Racicot told reporters in a conference call that Kerry suggested in a speech that 150,000 U.S. troops are "universally responsible" for the misdeeds of a few soldiers at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison -- a statement the candidate never made. In that one call, Racicot made at least three variations of this claim and the campaign cut off a reporter who challenged him on it.

In early March, Bush charged that Kerry had proposed a $1.5 billion cut in the intelligence budget that would "gut the intelligence services." Kerry did propose such a cut in 1995, but it amounted to about 1 percent of the overall intelligence budget and was smaller than the $3.8 billion cut the Republican-led Congress approved for the same program Kerry was targeting.

The campaign ads, which are most scrutinized, have produced a torrent of misstatements. On March 11, the Bush team released a spot saying that in his first 100 days in office Kerry would "raise taxes by at least $900 billion." Kerry has said no such thing; the number was developed by the Bush campaign's calculations of Kerry's proposals.

On March 30, the Bush team released an ad noting that Kerry "supported a 50-cent-a-gallon gas tax" and saying, "If Kerry's tax increase were law, the average family would pay $657 more a year." But Kerry opposes an increase in the gasoline tax. The ad is based on a 10-year-old newspaper quotation of Kerry but implies that the proposal is current.

Other Bush claims, though misleading, are rooted in facts. For example, Cheney's claim in almost every speech that Kerry "has voted some 350 times for higher taxes" includes any vote in which Kerry voted to leave taxes unchanged or supported a smaller tax cut than some favored.

Stretching the Truth


Incumbent presidents often prefer to run on their records in office, juxtaposing upbeat messages with negative shots at their opponents, as Bill Clinton did in 1996.

Scott Reed, who ran Robert J. Dole's presidential campaign that year, said the Bush campaign has little choice but to deliver a constant stream of such negative charges. With low poll numbers and a volatile situation in Iraq, Bush has more hope of tarnishing Kerry's image than promoting his own.

"The Bush campaign is faced with the hard, true fact that they have to keep their boot on his neck and define him on their terms," Reed said. That might risk alienating some moderate voters or depressing turnout, "but they don't have a choice," he said.

The strategy was in full operation last week, beginning Monday in Arkansas. "Senator Kerry," Cheney said, "has questioned whether the war on terror is really a war at all. He said, quote, 'I don't want to use that terminology.' In his view, opposing terrorism is far less of a military operation and more of a law enforcement operation."

But Kerry did not say what Cheney attributes to him. The quote Cheney used came from a March interview with the New York Times, in which Kerry used the phrase "war on terror." When he said "I don't want to use that terminology," he was discussing the "economic transformation" of the Middle East -- not the war on terrorism.

On Tuesday, the Bush campaign held a conference call to discuss its new ad, which charged that Kerry was "pressured by fellow liberals" to oppose wiretaps, subpoena powers and surveillance in the USA Patriot Act. "Kerry would now repeal the Patriot Act's use of these tools against terrorists," the ad said.

Kerry has proposed modifying those provisions by mandating tougher judicial controls over wiretaps and subpoenas, but not repealing them. In the conference call, Bush campaign manager Ken Mehlman was prodded to offer evidence that Kerry was pressured by liberals or that Kerry opposed wiretaps. He offered no direct evidence, saying only that Kerry objected to the Patriot Act after liberals did, and that "a common-sense reading indicates he intends to repeal those important tools."

Meanwhile, Kerry was greeted in Oregon and Washington state with television ads paid for by the Bush campaign that underscore what ad analysts call the negativity and misleading nature of many of the Bush TV spots. One titled "Doublespeak" pulls quotes from several major newspapers to argue that Kerry has waffled on major issues and has often said one thing and done another. The quotes, however, are often from editorials, sometimes from opinion pages hostile toward Kerry, such as that of the Wall Street Journal.

On Tuesday and Wednesday, as Kerry talked about rising gasoline prices, the Bush campaign recycled its charge that Kerry supports raising the gasoline tax by 50 cents per gallon. This was done in a memo to reporters and through Bush surrogates such as Rep. Jennifer Dunn (R-Wash.). The Bush-Cheney Web site also features a "Kerry Gas Tax Calculator," allowing users to learn "How much more would he cost you?"

In Thursday's Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Tracey Schmitt, regional spokeswoman for Bush-Cheney '04, echoed the point: "John Kerry helped block the bill in the Senate and is now inserting himself into the debate in a blatant display of political opportunism. Senator Kerry supported higher gas taxes at least 11 times, including a 50-cent-per-gallon gasoline tax," Schmitt said.

On Thursday, after Kerry delivered a major foreign policy address, the Bush campaign dispatched Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) to make this statement to the Green Bay Press-Gazette in his home state: "John Kerry has a history of making proposals and casting votes that would decrease America's safety." Kerry was campaigning in Green Bay on Thursday and Friday.

It is true Kerry has voted numerous times to eliminate weapons systems and opposed the 1991 Iraq war. But Cheney voted against many of those same weapons systems, and Kerry has voted for several defense increases, especially in recent years.

At Bush campaign headquarters on Thursday, Mehlman held a conference call with Sens. Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.) and George Allen (R-Va.) to level similar charges. "For John Kerry, the war in Iraq and the overall war on terror are a political game of Twister," Mehlman said.

Mehlman also drew reporters' attention to a new feature on the Bush Web site, allowing visitors to "Track Kerry's Shifting Positions on Iraq." That feature joined a Web log that points out negative coverage of Kerry, a feature called "John Kerry: The Raw Deal," "The Kerry Line," "Kerry Flip Flop of the Day," and "Journeys with John," a Kerry itinerary allowing people to see why "John Kerry is wrong for your state."

On Wednesday, a Bush memo charged that Kerry "led the fight against creating the Department of Homeland Security." While Kerry did vote against the Bush version multiple times, it is not true that he led the fight, but rather was one of several Democrats who held out for different labor agreements as part of its creation. Left unsaid is that, in the final vote, Kerry supported the department -- which Bush initially opposed.

Staff writer Howard Kurtz contributed to this report.

© 2004 The Washington Post Company
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Old 06-03-2004, 10:33 AM
chrissayer chrissayer is offline
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Rob said:
Quote:
Chris Bush did throw out all of the Baathists. Not sure what you mean here. Did he let some of the people from the party come back after they had been vetted and the hard core Saddam supporters had been weeded out? Sure he did as many were forced to join the party just to make a living
You know this isn't true - you're just parroting the party line. The General that was put in charge of the troops in Falujah (initially) was one of Saddam's butchers - he had certainly not been vetted. When this was pointed out, the Bush people quickly pulled him back and put forward someone else whose record was little less bloody.

Rob also said:
Quote:
Bush has not turned over authority to the UN. Has he worked with the UN, sure he has and he said that from the start. Do you forget that Bush went to the UN to get the 1441 resoultion??? Bush never said he was going into Iraq unilaterally that is just what liberals like you want to claim and then when he continues to build the coalition you blast him for that. You can't have it both ways...
When it came to selection of the new leaders for the Iraqi government, Bush turned the whole task over to Brahimi (which was probably a good thing). The fact that the IGC went ahead and ignored both Bush and Brahimi is probably even better, although it will certainly make Negroponte's task more difficult.

And as for Bush going to the UN to get 1441. Let's face it, he was dragged kicking and screaming to the UN and his administration (especially the Defense Department) did everything they could to offend traditional allies and to keep a real coalition and real negotiations from happening. Have you forgotten Rumsfelds put down of "old Europe."

And as for the "coalition." Don't make me post the list again. I've done it before and I'll do it again but it makes me giggle too hard (and hurts my ribs) every time I read out those proud names - Tonga, etc.
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Old 06-03-2004, 10:39 AM
rlc rlc is offline
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And as for the "coalition." Don't make me post the list again. I've done it before and I'll do it again but it makes me giggle too hard (and hurts my ribs) every time I read out those proud names - Tonga, etc.
The US, UK, Spain, Italy, Australia and Japan vs. Russia, China, France and Germany. That is what it came down to Chris. Are you telling me that you would rather be with the countries that have or had the Communists, the Nazis and the French??? I don't even know why I'm asking that as I already know the answer...
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Old 06-03-2004, 11:04 AM
gbh gbh is offline
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i agree. i would rather be with the countries that had ireland partitioned, the inquisition, il duce, crocodile dundee, and pearl harbor.
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Old 06-03-2004, 11:14 AM
chrissayer chrissayer is offline
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Rob:
I asked you not to force me but you didn't listen. I can hardly type this since I am giggling so hard.

You list US, UK, Spain (until June 30), Italy, Australia and Japan. Also, how many troops came from anywhere but the US and the UK. I know we were expecting heavy troop reinforcement from Bulgaria, Azerbaijan, Eritrea, Estonia, Iceland, Latvia (the fighting Lats), Macedonia (as soon as they get done filming Troy), Palau, Tonga and Rwanda (as soon as they stop killing each other). But we'll know that we're really serious when we unleash the Mongolian hordes.

Afghanistan
Albania
Angola
Australia
Azerbaijan
Bulgaria
Colombia
Costa Rica
Czech Republic
Denmark
Dominican Republic
El Salvador
Eritrea
Estonia
Ethiopia
Georgia
Honduras
Hungary
Iceland
Italy
Japan
Kuwait
Latvia
Lithuania
Macedonia
Marshall Islands
Micronesia
Mongolia
Netherlands
Nicaragua
Palau
Panama
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Rwanda
Singapore
Slovakia
Solomon Islands
South Korea
Spain
Tonga
Turkey
Uganda
Ukraine
United Kingdom
United States
Uzbekistan
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