amen.

under 70 years of communism in the soviet union, estimates for deaths total 65 million. Under China it's 45 million. I think it's roughly 25 million for the various other communist states like Cambodia. 150 million seems high for times before guns. how many died in the moors conquests to spread islam? fascism has ccounted for millions of deaths as well. of coruse, 16 million died for nothing in WWI.

To ban clothing, religious or otherwise is stupid. Let's ban stupidity first. Then worry about what people are wearing.

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Sponge
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Soaking up intelligent commentary.

Here is an odd paper on the estimates. It's a word document so beware...

http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.doc

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Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard. - H.L. Mencken

Up untill recently, I was a second era atheist. As such, I viewed things like you. Yes we have alot of laws that are inspired by religion. What I did realize however is that this nation was founded by Christians, Christians who said, hey, you may practice whatever you belive in, and the Govt won't punish you. So lemme get this straight, Christian morals have no place in a society fought for by, and founded by Christians?

Now I still hold true to this tenet. There are just some laws, inspired by religion that should not be on the books. But I wont go into that here.

Why do we (Americans) have to tolererate everyone else? Why can't people tolerate OUR values, OUR customs, OUR heritage? Why not? And let's get this straight, Christianity is under attack, belive it or not, by first era atheists, and communist holdovers in this nation, NOT by the populace at large. Look into the backrounds of the handful of people fighting Christian influence in this nation...Go for it!

Ah...multiculturualism.... Seems to me, all the troubles in western nations started when they started to follow the multiculturual rhetoric. Actually, France is in the situation they're in BECAUSE they belived in multiculturualism, the tolerance of others. Tolerance, that bordered on the point of insanity. Thankfully many French politicos are finally realizing this.
Multiculturualism seeks to divide, and hyphenate people, not bring them together. How can they share the same thing, when they're all multiculturual? And while most of the French willingly followed the principles of MC, the Muslims did not. That my friend, is fact. Pure, cold hard fact.

On the heals of MC, that's when racial, and ethnic pandering begin, one group makes out more then another, so then the other said groups feel alienated., There's an MO here, open up your eyes and see it.

Ah, it's always a misconception aint it? It's always, Islam is mis understood.... I was born Shinto, raised as a baptist. When put into fostercare, the foster parents happend to be Sunni. Sunni who belived Allah commanded them to bring Islam to the Kuffar by anymeans neccisarry. And that ment beating the sh*t out of us, for refusing to learn Arabic, or read the Qur'An.... Comparing the KKK to Islam is very weak my friend. There are not 120,000 million KKK members, but there is that many wahabists out there. And that's just one form of Islamic fundalmentalism. Go tell Al-Queda that what they belive in is'nt true Islam.. I'll sell the tickets and popcorn to your beheading.

Muslims have a term for people like you, and it goes like this.
Shalib' Akir Kuffar, Hanapshul bin hedid kerezie

Loosly translated, it means usefull idiot.

Last time I chekced, I never seen any Amish man throwing acid into the face of womem who don't cover their heads.

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"Outside of the battlefield, your enemy can be your friend"...Kojiiro.

Evil unchecked grows. Evil Tolerated, poisens the entire system.

By the way, your attempt at skillful debate is some pretty weak sh*t.

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"Outside of the battlefield, your enemy can be your friend"...Kojiiro.

Evil unchecked grows. Evil Tolerated, poisens the entire system.

Funny how those who believe their arguments are the strongest based purely on “skillful debate” are the first to personally attack those who do not agree. Very skillful indeed.

Christian values and morals have no place in a society that claims, today, to have respect for all individuals, regardless of religion, and claim to believe in liberal democracies. The current debate on marriage is an example. Those who support codifying the definition of marriage in the Constitution are attempting to impose Christian values on an area of life that it has no business imposing upon. Less damaging laws are those that declare which holidays are to be respected and recognized by all in society, i.e. Christmas, while ignoring the holidays of other religions, i.e. Ramadan. Furthermore, (and quite off topic) Christian morals certainly did not build this country. If that were the case, the genocide of the natives and enslavement of Africans would not have occurred, two crucial events in the history of this society.

What are OUR values, OUR customs, OUR heritage? We are made up of so many different cultures and heritages that American must equal multicultural.

Multiculturalism seeks gives those who are not the majority respect and dignity. The divisions have come as a result of a policy of non-assimilation, disrespect and ill-treatment – had America dealt with multiculturalism better from the beginning, then multiculturalism would not be seen as this threat to the common American identity. If you don’t believe in multiculturalism, then what is the alternative? Assimilation? Into what? What is American? What does it look like, act like, dress like?

African slaves had masters who believed that it was the Christians’ God’s will for Africans to be enslaved, beaten, and separated from their home and families because they were not human. If I tried to tell you that those practices were Christian practices, you would tell me they were the acts of Christian extremists, who didn’t really know what Christianity was about. Religion has been used for centuries to justify all kinds of horrible acts. Those who used Islam as a justification for violence and oppression are no different that Christian slave masters. They do not speak for Islam. They are not Islam.

I'm not so sure. there seems to be a lot more in the Quran to offer this justification or reason than in the Bible. (see quotes on being dressed, and impregnating as man women as possible to spread the religion.)
I don';t think Christian extremists justified those things. Quite th opposite. It was non-extremist christians looking for justification in religion, or at least a pardon. Amazing Grace was a song written by aJohn (?) Newton, a British slave trader. He decided to read the Bible one day and found he treated his slaves as cargo which was not christian. so he carried less less slaves and fed them better. Of course, as he got further into the Bible fe "discovered" his whole profession was unchristian. He got out of the biz, wrote AG, and founded the abilitionist movement in Britain. If ou read those "justifications" it is readily apparent that they were "stretching" the truth at best. btu that's besides the point. there is nothign wrong with a coutnry having a culture. MS is given far too great an importance today. like diversity fests, they turn out to be a bunch of fake poo.

When did we officialy become a LIBERAL democracy? Last time I checked, we are'nt even a true democracy anymore. Democracy is not the FEW changing things to the chargrin of the many. It's the MANY holding sway, and not the minority. I'm not using minority in a racial sense, but in a voter/constituent sense. What we have today in America is a hodepodge of ideals, extremes, and our system is only held together by those who cling to the belief of what America once was, and what it can be. Not some bs anarchic ideals of a 'liberal' democracy.

Up until the mid 1800's we were a Republic. Untill the tide of classic liberalism swept across Europe, it landed upon our shores. And we changed over from a Republic to Democracy. Classic Liberalism gave way to socialist liberalism in the 1960's, and with the exception of a few things like equal treatment/rights for blacks, womens rights, and it's all been down hill since then.

A funny thing I should also note is, that it was democratic and classic liberal citizens/politico's who held onto the slave/slave master system. And the republican's, populists, independents, etc who opposed it.




Really, I know more non Christians who are opposed to same sex marriages then Christian ones. Christians oppose it because the Bible says the same sex anything is a sacrilege, so obviously the Christians and any ofhter faith that says gay/lesbian is wrong will oppose it. I'll agree with you, if they want to marry let em, no Govt has any buisness telling adults what they can or cannot do with their own bodies, or telling them who they can, or cannot marry.
But get your facts straight about the people who oppose this.


Made up holidays like, Kwanzaa too huh? Again, so a few million Muslims enter a nation of 300 million, and all of the sudden we have to set aside days for their holdidays? Even if the majority 290-or so million don't want to? Well damn, take me back to school indigo, that sure don't like a democracy to me.

So you telling me that during Ramadan our Govt should enforce fasting on all citizens? Sounds like Sharia law to me. Or tell me how none of us Kuffars don't recognize or respect Ramadan. Why because our politico's don't run around saying happy ramadan to you? Or send you Ramadan inspired presents like food? Or because our advertisers don't have 'Ramadan sales' or An old man dressed up like Mohhamed where little kids can sit on his lap, and pray towards Mecca?

So how about this, we have such a free society, that tomorro I can go down to the COC declare my own religious holiday. And on that holiday, I go out and look for people like you to beat up. How long would you respect my made up holiday, especially since I don't respect yours? I don't, this was never meant to be a nation sympathetic to the values of the rest of the world.

The fact of the matter is this. All religions at one time or another have had their times as oppressors of freewill. Or have a motto of conversion by the sword. IE: Convert or Die. However, non so much more so, then Islam. It's an ugly brutal fact. You continually bring up the faults of Christian morality, while ignoring those of Islam, or other religions.

You indigo are FOS.

If Mulsims are that worried that their religion is being misconstrued, then maybe it's time they get out there, and stop all of the assualts, murders, and persecution done in Islam's name. I always hear Muslims whine, but that's not true Islam, that;'s not what we belive. I rarely ever hear about any Muslim taking the neccessary steps to stop it.


How many sects of Christianity is there? Correct me if I'm wrong, but was'nt it Christians fighting Christians in our Civil War. Were'nt Baptists like Douglas opposed to it. Were'nt those who twisted the Bible to suit they're slave needs dispowned by the main chruches, with the exception of the catholic church, which took an active part in changing the morals to fit slavery? Were did that term All Men are created equal come from? Was it one of our Islamic founders who said that? Gee that's right, it was'nt. Trying reading up on the Federalists papers, or the archival letters of our founders and politico's of that period. And then try to tell me that their belief in Cristianity did'nt lay the foundations, and shape this nation.

The slavery of Africans was going on ALL OVER the Globe at this point in time. Perputrated by all religions. Muslim, Christian, Buddhists, etc. The first to let it go was, Buddhists, Christians came second, followed by Islam, except Muslims still practice slavery to this day. Except with their own people, particuliary women.

You really starting to sound like some College Freshman Parrot who's regurgitating everything the Prof's tell you. Or one of those brainless Prof's who's trying vainly to indroctrinate people.


OUT Of Many.....One That don't sound too multiculturual to me. There's was a time when you came here, brought the good things of your culture, left the BS behind, assimilated the good parts, and yourself, and became an American. Not a ******/American just, an American. All of this
*****/American sh*t started when the multi culturualists decide we were all to hegmonic for their tastes. Or better yet, read up on what Gramsci, Engels, Stalin, and Mao had to say about Multiculturualism...And how to use it, to foster dissent, and seperation among hegmonic nations they sought to convert to Communism.

So we're made up of so many things that American must equal MC? How is that? By your logic, then there is NO such thing as as a nation. Because nations are not just THERE one minute, and their people did'nt sprout outta the ground either. They came from other places, they immigrated, bringing their culture from somewere else, and incorporating it into that of the hostarea that chose to live in. What is a French culture, what are it's roots, were did they come from? Before France was France, and French, they were Gaul. Who were the British before it became Britainn? They were made up of Celts, Normans, Romans, etc. Who came together to form ONE nation, with a culture. And as time passed, hundreds of years, they formed their own spins on things, there own culture, customs etc. People like you Indigo, don't even want to give America the chance for that.

Read the above. MC gives not the Majority, but the minority respect. Ok, I'll agree but not in the way you think. I'm old enough to remember a time when MC was little more than a catch phrase, and being teased, because I'm a mixed mutt, not white with blond hair blue eyes. But guess what? I survived. I did'nt pee myself run home and scream,mommy they teased my cause I'm different. I dealt with it. I did'nt slit my wrists or kill 30 people because I got teased and or picked on. I dealt with it, and realized even then, that there are more of them, then us, and as such, we are the minority. By respect, you seek to give the minority equal say.
It just dont work like that. Never has, never will. Because there will always be the minority. And then what what? Expand MC to the point of no hegmonic cohesiveness, and complete social breakdown, because we're all so different, we can't agree? Well screw that.

I may not agree with alot of things in this nation, alot of my oppions may not coincide with the majority. But I am an adult, I can handle that, and deal with it. I have enough respect for the idea of what this country could be, to go along with the crowd on certain issue.
MC = respect, which equals, more control for said minority, which in turn gives themeve more control, to repeat the cycle, and at somepoint, you have social breakdown............... All this adds up to,
Relative morality/diversity...And ya know what that means don't ya?
Man, you must have really been raped by academia huh?



Who decides what is, or what is not, Islam, Christianity, Shintoism, etc? Who's actually got the final word on it? Once again, read yer books, there are certain sects of Chrstianity and Islam and other religions who have perpatrated the majority of human suffering. The difference between Chrstianity and Islam as a whole, is that there are not millions of Christian extremists these days running around blowing up kids on their way to school, and using their religion as a cover for absolute control, murder, sect-ual genocide, with complete disregard for the lives of others.

I said your skills at debate are weak. And they are. You are one of those who got told a few things, made some opinions, and now try to pass them off as fact. :icon_be_: Your arguments are transparent at best, baseless as far as history is concerned, and you fail to step back, look at the whole picture, and see humanity's actions as a whole throughout the ages. No one can do any wrong in YOUR eyes except Christian Americans.

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"Outside of the battlefield, your enemy can be your friend"...Kojiiro.

Evil unchecked grows. Evil Tolerated, poisens the entire system.

actually, it was teh civil war that ended the repblic as it was designed. no longer an agreement between equal and sovereign states but a top down republic.
i suppose you are talking about slavery. that is somewhat true but not entirely. IMO, politically the confederates were right. that the state's had the option to secede. Lincoln was a racist and could have cared less about the slaves. he freed them in an attempt to incite rebellion since the union army was getting their ass handed to them by a bunch of "redlegs." in fact, republicans were never for abolition (except teh abilitionist sect.) they were merely a reformed Whig Party out for a central bank, protective tariffs, and state subsidies for connected biz's. If lincoln's goal was to free slaves, he could have compensated slaveowners, etc...like most other countries at the time. at any rate, what we have today is the natural evolution of a centralized state.

as for celebrating ramadan as a national holiday, it's beyond me why a nation would declare something a national holiday that is celebrated only by a small minority. if it bceoms the dominant culture, so be it. otherwise, as long as you are free to celebrate it, the country is not being hypocritical.
anyways, it looks like we have many different views on this stuff. i ask you, where is there a muslim country that has national holidays for christians?