I remember a past thread where Hal explained why the el doesn't stop at those stations in the first place, as well as why they can't be easily modified so that the el stops there in addition to the trolleys. However, I would think that it would be plausible to rearrange one of them so that the el stops there but the trolleys don't (that way Center City West would have one each trolley and el stops).

Am I wrong?

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Well, I think the problem would be that all four tracks run right next to each other, so there would be no room to build a platform that would serve the El. The existing platform is all the way on the outside, so it's only accessible to the trolleys, which run on the outside tracks. I don't think it would be possible to put in an El platform without diverting the trolley tracks.

Now theoretically you could divert the trolley tracks by eliminating the existing outer platforms and using that space to kind of curve the trolley tracks away from the El tracks. The space that that opened up might work, but here's another issue - The El needs a much longer platform than do the trolleys, so I don't think you've have the requisite length even if you could "bend" the trolley tracks here.

I've thought often about this, wishing the El could stop at 22nd. I don't think there's an easy solution.

the fact that it doesnt stop anywhere in cc west is stupid. why would they have 2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 13th, 15th, all those stops close to eachother, then nothing til 30th st? any particular reason behind this idiocy?

Also, remember that the el cars have high fixed doors - and high loading platforms, while the trolleys are low door. They are not interchangable.

As for Josef's question. I suspect that they feel that the 15th street stations serves the area all the way out to 18th or 19th underground. And coming the other way, from 30th St., there is no reason to stop in the under the river - so you don't need 26th 28th, etc.

Also, when these systems were being built, there was very little building west of Penn Square - the chinese wall didn't come down until after these systems were already in place - thus no buildings.

There is a gap, I will admit, but it certainly isn't insurmountable.

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“Cities have the capability of providing something for everybody, only because, and only when, they are created by everybody.” - Jane Jacobs

Right, when the subway was built there was incredible density, both structural and people-wise, east of City Hall, and not as much to the West, so it made sense. Take a look at photos of East Market Street from the turn of the last century - wall to wall people, trolleys, horse carts. From our perspective it's terribly off-balance. I hate the 15th-13th-11th run, personally. Especially between 13th and 11th, the tunnel is so short that the front of the train is probably almost arriving at one station as the rear is leaving the previous one.

The MFL was there first. They didn't build MFL stops west of Broad Street because there was a railroad running overtop and along the MFL, and all the business was east of market.
So, in retrospect it was stupid to build highrises where there were no subway stops.

THEN
The MFL was built before 30th Street Station. Before 30th Street Station
the main station of the Pennsylvania Railroad was Broad Street Station, facing the west side of City Hall. It was a huge above ground terminal just like the Reading Terminal. The embankment for the trains took up
all the area that's now JFKL Boulevard. So when the MFL was built, there were no stops west of market because there wasn't a need for stops-
the existing trolley stops handled the traffic.

DEJA VU
When the Pennsylvania Railroad put their trains underground west of Market Street, they built new office space- and pulled tenants out of the existing offices all along Broad Street. So- we get new highrises along West Market, and empty buildings along Broad. The City may have made a strategic mistake by pushing offices into areas well served by trains,
but ignoring that the area wasn't served by trolleys or MFL. By helping the Pennsylvania Railroad develop JFK Boulevard and focusing on train service, the city inadvertenly made it MUCH easier for people to leave Philadlephia, because you can take a train into those office jobs in Center City, but you can't get there by subway or MFL- so oddly, by building new highises in Center City that you can only get to by train, it pushed people out of the city.

NOW
Now, there's the CIRA center going up near 30th Street station- offfices being built above land owned by the railroad. And now people are worried that the CIRA center may pull office tenants from Libery I & II and the offices along JKF Boulevard, which would merely re-enact what those office towers did to the Broad Street district.




Well, there IS one way that I think could work-
Bend the trolley tracks, but not side to side, bend them UP
Raise the trolleys to sidewalk level and put a MFL stop underneath.

Raise the trolley tracks on support columns so the stop is at sidewalk level along Market. Tuck the MFL station into the support columns under the trolley tracks.

Hal

Interesting. What would that do to traffic on Market St. there though?

Or the sidewalks.

So you would have cars and trolleys .. . but no place to walk.

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“Cities have the capability of providing something for everybody, only because, and only when, they are created by everybody.” - Jane Jacobs

Shouldn't do too much, I wasn't thinking of removing a traffic lane or anything. I envisioned the trolley popping up to ground level in part of what's now the loading/unloading zone, perhaps taking up part of the sidewalk.

However, now that you'd mentioned it, I'm not sure where exactly the subway tracks and trolley lines are in relation to the roadway above,
You can interpolate basd on the 19th street entrances-
The stairway is under the sidewalk,
the platform is under parking lane along the curb,
the trolley is along the travel lane from the curb,
the MFL is along the middle lane from the curb.


Hal

Remember that rail vehichles can only take so steep a grade. Just look at the 40th Street portal and how long the grade is there. You'd need slopes that long on either side of an above ground trolley station on Market Street. That would obstruct Market for several blocks in each direction.

If we were really serious about making an MFL stop at 19 or 22nd, I'd suggest building the MFL platform where the trolley tracks are now, but then making the trolley tracks dive underneath the new platform. This wouldn't affect the surface, and the trolley wouldn't have to dive nearly as much to get under the platform as it would have to climb in order to reach street level.

That said, even this altered plan might be prohibitively expensive.

Mark