I am fairly new to the city and feel like when I take the train I see old stations. I would like to know where stations used to be. I'm mostly curious about the regional rail lines, but have been reading there were other subway lines than Market Frankford and the BSL. Has septa been shrinking or expanding? I like septa so you can skip your septa complaining. I can't think of better transit systems in the US other than NYC and Chicago that are as extensive and convenient.

How can a new station be added. On the regional rail lines it doesn't look complicated. Some stations are just concrete platforms. How hard could it be to add one of those? I wonder with all the development north of Spring Garden around 11th-7th streets if they will add a station just before the trains go underground in their final descent into Market East. It sure would be convenient for me.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...&ct=image&cd=1


Missing Stations are on the Ridge Line and an abandoned station for Patco under the base of the Ben Franklin, Franklin Square (Philly side)

Multiple stations have been removed from the RR system. Most of them are only platforms within city limits. Sevel lines have been cut and most are still there just in disrepair (Fox Chase, Newtown, etc...)

Septa's broke and sees no real need to reopen any closed station. They have enough trouble maintaining the current system.

They make half-arse attempts to build new lines but even the Federal Gov't laughs at their grant proposals (SVT Metro)


May of the stations were removed from the RR due to extremely low ridership (in the teens daily) and some were pulled because they slowed the trains too much (takes a bit to stop and start 'em so the try to stretch the distance so the trains can get up to speed to speed the whole trip)

We don't ridicule Septa for nothing. They were proud of how they handled Live 8 (4 hour delays)


For your information not having a stop at the entrance to the Market East side of the Commuter Tunnel might be due to the fact that Septa has systematically cut off the City of Philadelphia (especially the poorer sections) from Regional Rail access either by removing stations or overpricing to gkeep people on CTD based lines (MFL has a couple defunct RR stations...they almost force you to use the MFL in the NE by sheer pricing for example)

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Regarding old SEPTA maps, there are numerous still posted around the system. There are ones from the early 80s in the pedestrian concourse near the fountain at the SW corner of City Hall. There's another one in the eastbound 15th St. trolley station. There are many more; too many to count. Many of them were put up before Market East and the Center City Commuter Tunnel were built, and still show the old lines.

There were never more subway lines as you conjecture. With the exception of the closing of two or three stations, the subway system hasn't changed since PATCO opened 35 years ago. There have been several cuts to the regional rail system: Newtown, West Chester, and Ivy Ridge (the current R6 Cynwyd used to cross the river and go to Ivy Ridge, near the R6 Norristown station of the same name) were the most notable cuts.

Now, if you're talking trolley routes, there are too many to count that have been cut or replaced with buses. The majority of current bus lines were at one time trolley lines. Track is still largely in place (paved over for only a few blocks) for the Route 23 (Chestnut Hill-South Philadelphia), the longest trolley line in the world. The 56 was only recently paved over. Both last saw regular service in 1993. Another notable line was the trolley from 69th Street out to West Chester.

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When life throws pies at you, make yourself a tall, cool glass of piemonade!

I know, I'm reminded of this daily that there used to be BOTH a RR and a trolley to West Chester.

But not for long! F-U Jersey drivers, F-U SEPTA! F-U insurance companies! I be walkin' to work soon, mothballing the car and buying a new motorcycle... only 1 1/2 blocks everday!!!! Wooha !

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Buh-bye.

The circa 1980 SEPTA map that Zur posted is interesting. The regional rail lines are simply designated as the Reading Commuter Line and the Penn Central Commuter Line. Without the Center City Commuter tunnel, these lines really don't have any stations in common (The Reading line terminates at Reading Terminal and the Penn Central terminates at Penn Center). Also, back then the R6 Norristown line didn't stop at Ivy Ridge. There was no station there. Today's R6 Cynwyd line did stop at the old Ivy Ridge Station, but now that line terminates Cynwyd and the old Ivy Ridge Station is defunct. In addition, there was a Spring Garden Station on the Reading line, which is no longer there as trains go underground toward Market East.

Goes to show how important the CC tunnel is to the entire system.

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I think both the Ivy Ridge and Spring garden stations are relevant today and we woudl benefit from their use.
Ivy Ridge: REstore the bridge and create a conection between teh two lines to Ivy Ridge trains can then run to norristown. the current R6 woudl become the R6 Manayunk Local...terminating at the new, merged Ivy Ridge station. rides downtown from the Ivy Ridge stop woudl probably be closer to ten minutes unless a 52nd st stop was added.
Spring Garden: I'm a fan of incorporating the old train viaduct into the new 52nd st corridor. yes, it's expensive but the line could terminate as an elevated at 10th and the gallery or it could return to street level utilizing one of the surface lots around vine sts and loop around11th/12th using filbert/arch. the viaduct coudl then also use the viaduct via spring garden (8th/9th) and, I'm not familiar enought with the area but I do know there is a fair amount of open land there...could connect with the street running tracks on american which, I believe, run all the way to fern rock.

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Well, when people talk about "old stations" you have to remember that in the Civil War, there were about 5 or 6 different railroads, so many areas that were built around train stations - e.g. fishtown and northern liberties, no longer have those trains.

There's an excellent map of the railroads circa the civil war on the library of congress website.

Basically, pre-civil war, you have several local railroads - none of which stopped in Center City - but all stayed outside city limits.

Then, post civil war, multiple railroads were consolidated into 2 main rr's -
(a) Pennsylvania Railroad
(b) Reading Railroad

These 2 bought up the local railroads, built viaducts or tunnels to channel all their routes into 2 new downtown stations - Reading Terminal at 11th and Market, and Broad Street Station at 15th and Broad.

Then, the 2 big railroads go broke, they are merged into 1, which becomes SEPTA.

SEPTA then connects the 2 downtown stations- by building a new tunnel housing Market East Station

Hal

Gasp! What about the (hehe) Loft District!

I'm not sure that they can handle trains anymore. Were they maintained?

What bridge is it for the r6...the one right below the grandstands on kelly Drive?

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There is a Regional Rail and Trolley map at 69th street superimposed on an existing road atlas you can check out. It's on the way off the 104 bus (near the pizza shop).

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Buh-bye.