Our Prison problem - Page 3 - PhillyBlog

Malloy · #21 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eldondre

Legal cocaine would also act as a legal alternative to the far more damaging chemical concoctions of meth and crack.....I'd support either the legalization of cocaine or it's primary ingredient, the coca leaf.

Ya need to use kerosene, sulfuric acid and other cool chemicals to get to that coca goodness, right? Coke is a far far cry from
the leaves those jungle dwellers chew on.

Oh, what about freebase?

Most well to do coke users Ive seen/met/heard about have gone to **** in some area. Would they have cheated on their mates if they didn't start abusing coke with good looking, promotion driven coworkers? Who knows...

seand · #22 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 12:47 PM

Putting aside drug decriminilization for minute, 60% of the people in Philly's local jail system are pre-trial. 1/2 of those are there simply because they couldn't raise money for bail. Some of those people are there for low-level crimes, low bail, low flight risk. Its a waste of resources for taxpayers to fund housing some of these financially destitute but low-bail pre-trial detainees when they could be handled just as effectively with anklets, day reporting (daily check in, drug test while continuing to work), etc. Its just a waste of resources that could be going into more and better parole and probation programs which actually make us safer.

For an in depth discussion of Philly's local jail overcrowding problem I suggest people listen to this Radio Times with Marty Moss-Coane.

Guests are the David Rudovsky, the ACLU lawyer responsible for the suit against the city, and Leon King former Phila Prison Commissioner, current aide to Councilman Rizzo. Well worth a listen.
http://www.whyy.org/rameta/RT/2007/RT20071029_20.ram

Malloy · #23 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 12:48 PM

FWIW: I wouldn't blink an eye if weed was legalized.

I wish I could google proof, but I bet most people in jail are there on coke/crack/meth charged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eldondre

If it's 300 it's too many. Cocaine used to be the purvey of pharmacists, making it illegal moved it to shoe shine boys, yesterday's natural equivalent of the "low level corner boy."
You're 18, you get busted for dealing marijuana, you spend three weeks in jail, you lose your part-time job, you're no longer eligible for student loans, and you have a criminal record. how is his life going to turn out? Given this, the money is too good and it's clear all those deterrents aren't working and you've just ruined this boy's life because you are being overly harsh for something that isn't really even that damaging.
Alcohol prohibition led to soaring usage and an enormous rise in violent crime. drugs have been the same way. we've all been educated to believe that without the state keeping drugs in check, society would collapse but most evidence doesn't support that.

seand · #24 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malloy

FWIW: I wouldn't blink an eye if weed was legalized.

I wish I could google proof, but I bet most people in jail are there on coke/crack/meth charged.

And even so, some of them are there for mere possession but not able to raise bail. If we just want them to pee in a cup daily while they await trial there are cheaper ways to make them do that than housing them at $85 a head a day.

seand · #25 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

The factor driving the overcrowding: Inmates are spending more time in prison, according to a 2006 study of the city's jail overcrowding by Temple University researcher John S. Goldkamp.

His detailed look at the prison population between 1996 and 2006 found the average stay for inmates in 2006 was about 90 days - up from 74 days in 2000.

The reason is a growing Municipal Court backlog, largely a result of increased drug arrests. In 1995, there were 7,500 outstanding cases. In 2005, there were 26,944.

The result is that Philadelphia has the highest incarceration rate of the nation's 50 biggest counties, with 596 people in jail for every 100,000 residents, according to a report issued last month by the nonprofit Justice Policy Institute.

"Prisons cannot be a dumping ground for a number of failed systems," Gillison said. "We have to think anew about who should be incarcerated, and how we use our prisons."

The administration is evaluating options that include using satellite technology to electronically track low-risk, nonviolent offenders who can't afford bail of $535 or less, and finding treatment facilities for nearly 800 inmates with serious mental-health issues.

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news...get_worse.html

eldondre · #26 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malloy

Ya need to use kerosene, sulfuric acid and other cool chemicals to get to that coca goodness, right? Coke is a far far cry from
the leaves those jungle dwellers chew on.

no. If it were legal, of course, you coudl regulate what went in it and how it was prepared.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malloy

Oh, what about freebase?

what about alcoholics who down bottles of cheap gin? does that mean the rest of us should have to suffer through anotehr prohibition?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malloy

Most well to do coke users Ive seen/met/heard about have gone to **** in some area. Would they have cheated on their mates if they didn't start abusing coke with good looking, promotion driven coworkers? Who knows...

so most people who cheat on their wives are cokeheads? any proof to back that one up? and would be people cheat less if they were never intoxicated? less public urination? shoudl we ban alcohol again? mind you, a spouse can file for divorce and one can be charged with indecency and public urination. seems to be a more sensiblel approach.
some interesting background

Quote:

When the Spaniards conquered South America, they at first ignored aboriginal claims that the leaf gave them strength and energy, and declared the practice of chewing it the work of the Devil. But after discovering that these claims were true, they legalized and taxed the leaf, taking 10% off the value of each crop. These taxes were for a time the main source of support for the Roman Catholic Church in the region.[citation needed] In 1569, Nicolás Monardes described the practice of the natives of chewing a mixture of tobacco and coca leaves to induce "great contentment":..Although the stimulant and hunger-suppressant properties of coca had been known for many centuries, the isolation of the cocaine alkaloid was not achieved until 1855 (An alkaloid is a nitrogen-containing naturally occurring compound, produced by a large variety of organisms)...A chemist named Angelo Mariani who read Mantegazza’s paper became immediately intrigued with coca and its economic potential. In 1863, Mariani started marketing a wine called Vin Mariani, which had been treated with coca leaves. The ethanol in wine acted as a solvent and extracted the cocaine from the coca leaves, altering the drink’s effect. It contained 6 mg cocaine per ounce of wine, but Vin Mariani, which was to be exported, contained 7.2 mg per ounce to compete with the higher cocaine content of similar drinks in the United States. A “pinch of coca leaves” was included in John Styth Pemberton's original 1886 recipe for Coca-Cola...By the turn of the twentieth century, the addictive properties of cocaine had become clear to many, and the problem of cocaine abuse began to capture public attention in the United States. The dangers of cocaine abuse became part of a moral panic that was tied to the dominant racial and social anxieties of the day... In the same year, the Harrison Narcotics Tax Act outlawed the sale and distribution of cocaine in the United States. This law incorrectly referred to cocaine as a narcotic, and the misclassification passed into popular culture. As stated above, cocaine is a stimulant, not a narcotic Because of the misclassification of cocaine as a narcotic, the debate is still open on whether the government actually enforced these laws strictly. Cocaine was not considered a controlled substance until 1970, when the United States listed it as such in the Controlled Substances Act. Until that point, the use of cocaine was open and rarely prosecuted in the US due to the moral and physical debates commonly discussed...The estimated U.S. cocaine market exceeded $70 billion in street value for the year 2005, exceeding revenues by corporations such as Starbucks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine

Also, relative to the discussion, in the above cited History Channel special, they found that the violence associated with the drug trade skyrocketed after the controlled substances act was passed (the beginning of the modern drug war). People who happened to live in cities at the time may also recall that this is when inner city crime began to skyrocket and QOL got worse. Personally, I think NYC has effectively outsourced the drug trade ot other places such as Scranton, Newark, Trenton, REading, etc but there are plenty of users. high end users have delivery boys and the wealthier manhattan becomes, the more of this type of distribution it sees. Legalizing marijuana is a step in the right direction but until mainstrean folks like malloy can come to a sensible compromise on cocaine, it's not going to be enough. when you compare the smaller problems of freebasing to the enormous fiscal cost (tens of billions in the US alone) and social cost (violence plagued neighborhoods and countries...illicit drugs have funded decades of strife in Columbia). they start to look pretty meager.

zete_374 · #27 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 02:17 PM

Execute them all.

five apples · #28 (**permalink**) 05-30-2008, 10:24 AM

This morning's inqy has an in depth article on the many woes facing our prison system. It paints a very bleak picture.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/home_...ve_to_run.html

cyainthehood · #29 (**permalink**) 05-30-2008, 10:36 AM

The Inquirer article tells how the prisons are overcrowded and dangerously understaffed. Here is a NE Times article that tells how politicians want to make it harder for prisoners to be released on parole.

I don't have any answers here, but I sure wouldn't want my loved one working in a prison facility that isn't air conditioned and likely to cause prisoners to riot--for 32k a year.

Lawmakers aim to put
teeth in prison sentence

By Tom Waring
Times Staff Writer

State Rep. John Perzel last week pointed to a poster featuring the names, pictures and rap sheets of 576 Philadelphians who have been paroled from prison.
The ex-cons are absconders. The Pennsylvania Board of Probation and Parole cannot locate them.
"These people shouldn’t be on the street," Perzel said.
Perzel (R-172nd dist.) held a news conference on May 22 at his Mayfair district office. He was joined by fellow Reps. George Kenney (R-170th dist.) and John Taylor (R-177th dist.).
Taylor said the city’s absconders are a threat to public safety.
"That’s five-hundred and seventy-six people likely to commit further violent crime," said Taylor, adding that the figure statewide is about 1,400.
The three lawmakers announced that they will offer a series of legislative initiatives designed to make it more difficult for violent offenders to get out of prison before serving their full sentence.
They acted after learning that the three suspects involved in the shooting death of police officer Stephen Liczbinski were repeat violent offenders.
Perzel called it the "last straw." Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey has said the men should not have been free.
"Enough is enough," said Kenney, who visited Liczbinski’s widow Michelle at her home on Claridge Street in Burholme.
The Republican legislators want judges to impose longer sentences for violent offenses, along with the following legislative measures:
• Eliminating parole for any offender convicted of rape, robbery, murder, aggravated assault or any crime with a gun.
• Eliminating early release programs for offenders convicted of a violent crime involving a gun.
• Requiring that all mandatory five-year sentences for gun offenses be served consecutively and not concurrently with sentences for other crimes.
In addition, the lawmakers want the state to require that all inmates receive an affirmative vote by a majority of the nine members of the parole board to win release. Currently, an inmate needs yes votes from only two board members.
Taylor, whose district includes the Port Richmond neighborhood where Liczbinski was killed, believes the state needs to increase the number of parole field agents. Right now, they have to review 1,700 cases a month.
Taylor, describing the parole system as one that is "broken and needs to be fixed," noted that 80 percent of murders in Philadelphia are committed by convicted felons who are out of prison.
"That’s an indictment of the entire system," he said.
Perzel believes state government’s top priority should be public safety. He wants help from judges, whom he faults for skirting Pennsylvania’s mandatory five-year gun sentence by making it concurrent with sentences for lesser crimes.
"No longer will that be allowed," he said. ••
Reporter Tom Waring can be reached at 215-354-3034 or twaring@phillynews.com

Towelie · #30 (**permalink**) 05-30-2008, 10:54 AM

legalization + tax revenue = More money for prisons for VIOLENT criminals.