Cop Beating - Page 8 - PhillyBlog

random · #71 (**permalink**) 05-07-2008, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Brightside

You know from my posts that I support the police 99% of the time and that I don't generally make excuses for people. At quick glance this looked a little excesssive to me. Bear in mind that you and I are both expressing opinions without the benefit of being there.

I can understand approaching the car with weapons drawn, I can understand slamming these guys on the ground, I can even understand a few baton blows. The cops had these guys on the ground relatively quickly -- it's what took place after that happened that is questionable. Multiple officers kicked and punched suspects that appeared to be on the ground and under control. With five guys there and a suspect on the ground you jam a knee into the suspet's back and force him to put his hands behind his back. I guarantee you that officers are trained to do that as opposed to kicking and punching suspects in the head.

Ramsey could have staunchly defended his officers but he's acknowledged that their actions don't look good. He called all commanding officers in after the incident and instructed them to speak to their officers about the departments directive governing use of force.

Based on what I can see, the officers appeared to use more than the minimum amount of force needed to subdue these guys. But I appreciate the tough, dangerous job that they do and given all that they've gone through these past few days I think that they should be given the benefit of the doubt.

I disagree that the force used was excessive but you've given a reasoned response and neither of us were there, so there's no point in just arguing.

The one thing I have to disagree with is this "minimum force" requirement.

Anyone making a lawful arrest may use whatever force is reasonably necessary to effect an arrest. There is no minimum force requirement in the law. In essence, it's not supposed to be a fair or gentle fight. Resist and you will very, very likely be hurt. Often pretty badly.

A lot of folks I've spoken to here and there about this also mention that a person well trained in subduing a suspect generally wouldn't stomp on their head or strike with a baton to make them comply. I don't have any training relating to placing someone in handcuffs so I admit I have no clue on that score. I will say that if I try to place myself in the shoes of the guys on the tape given the suspects' refusal to comply, I would stomp and strike as hard as I could and would not stop until they did comply. From that standpoint, I can't criticize what they did. In many ways I applaud it. While I am a staunch supporter of civil rights, I am not a supporter of anyone fleeing police and resisting arrest. Reap what you sow.

If this ever does make it into a civil trial, I hope I'm on that jury. Scuzzballs and their families get zip butkis. As in nothing bu'bye.

Mr. Brightside · #72 (**permalink**) 05-07-2008, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by random

I disagree that the force used was excessive but you've given a reasoned response and neither of us were there, so there's no point in just arguing.

The one thing I have to disagree with is this "minimum force" requirement.

Anyone making a lawful arrest may use whatever reasonable force is necessary to effect an arrest. There is no minimum force requirement in the law. In essence, it's not supposed to be a fair or gentle fight. Resist and you will very, very likely be hurt. Often pretty badly.

Reasonable force is the legal requirement. Police departments have directives governing the use of force that may be more restrictive. I do not know what the PPD's directive says.

Quote:

A lot of folks I've spoken to here and there about this also mention that a person well trained in subduing a suspect generally wouldn't stomp on their head or strike with a baton to make them comply. I don't have any training relating to placing someone in handcuffs so I admit I have no clue on that score. I will say that if I try to place myself in the shoes of the guys on the tape given the suspects' refusal to comply, I would stomp and strike as hard as I could and would not stop until they did comply. From that standpoint, I can't criticize what they did. In many ways I applaud it.

My father was employed at various times as a police officer and a correctional officer. He was taught that there were more effective ways to subdue a person than using blows with a baton or closed fist. He had this neat little trick where he'd jam his thumb into your armpit. It hurt ... a lot. If you have someone on their face with a knee in their back you can also get a pretty good arm bar going. The higher you push their wrist towards their head the more it hurts.

Hospitalitygirl · #73 (**permalink**) 05-07-2008, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Brightside

My father was employed at various times as a police officer and a correctional officer. He was taught that there were more effective ways to subdue a person than using blows with a baton or closed fist. He had this need little trick where he'd jam his thumb into your armpit. It hurt ... a lot. If you have someone on their face with a knee in their back you can also get a pretty good arm bar going. The higher you push their wrist towards their head the more it hurts.

You need to get them out of the car (where they may or may not have a gun, after a shooting is witnessed), and close enough for that tactic to be effective.

Oh, and will someone tell silly, little Sheinelle Jones that she is a R-E-P-O-R-T-E-R and not an editorialist. If I hear that twit say one more time "excessive force" with that face she makes... Fool.

random · #74 (**permalink**) 05-07-2008, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deez

you are making yourself look silly....regardless of that once they ripped him out there is no reason to beat on him like that or the other guys...those guys threw no punches and to be beat for no reason like that is a disgrace...the video is perfectly clear on what happened....being a cop doesnt give you a right to go and stomp someone 8 to 1 with the 1`s being defenseless laying on the ground you moron....the badge doesnt put you aboye the law, now if those guys had guns or threw punches then i could see what they did but they just thought they could get awat with it....

I'll make you the same offer I've made to others. You can place me face down on the ground and you don't know if I have any hidden weapons. It's you or me. I will struggle trying to reach my weapons as you struggle to control my arms and ultimately cuff me. If I win the struggle, you will likely be hurt real bad or die. If you win the struggle, you can put cuffs on me and then search me. Do you want that deal? If you were a third person watching this, would you just stand there waiting to see which of us came out ahead?

Mr. Brightside · #75 (**permalink**) 05-07-2008, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hospitalitygirl

You need to get them out of the car (where they may or may not have a gun, after a shooting is witnessed), and close enough for that tactic to be effective.

Oh, and will someone tell silly, little Sheinelle Jones that she is a R-E-P-O-R-T-E-R and not an editorialist. If I hear that twit say one more time "excessive force" with that face she makes... Fool.

The stuff that was arguably excessive happened after they were out of the car and after they were on the ground in a face down position.

I see and respect your position. Hopefully you can do the same with mine.

Hospitalitygirl · #76 (**permalink**) 05-07-2008, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deez

hey dope it was not 1 on 1,(they could have held down the guy if he was resisting,but to kick and punch and beat them with batons is a disgrace....they better get jail time .......it was 10 on 1 and batons and kicking the the defendents not resisting go watch the tape again you clown....

No. They had better not get jail time. It was not excessive force. It was enough to get the cuffs on. Any force stopped once they were on and the suspects were on the ground. There was an officer to suspect to guard, and the rest were looking at the vehicle.

Mr. Brightside · #77 (**permalink**) 05-07-2008, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hospitalitygirl

No. They had better not get jail time. It was not excessive force. It was enough to get the cuffs on. Any force stopped once they were on and the suspects were on the ground. There was an officer to suspect to guard, and the rest were looking at the vehicle.

Troll?