And how is that fair to the landlords (the good ones)? Say they have been renting to tenants that run down their property for 10-20 years. Finally the neighborhood turns around and they have the ability to be rewarded for sticking with things and able to rent to a higher class of person. More money, less destructive of property, etc. It is not exactly fair to them to say "you can't raise rates".

That is what I mean by market forces.

What peopel don't seem to grasp is that North Philly has been SO BAD and undervalued and underdeveloped for so long that of course it is going to be a drastic upswing. It isn't like this is a middle class suburb that got a golf course built in the backyard all of a sudden. The area's value is readjusting and heading to what the value it should be.

I said before there are special needs cases that need to be dealt with, but I do not believe these are the majority.

No, it is not silly and you are indirectly validating my point.

You say "do you think they should be paying to live in a blighted neighborhood with a shooting every week?"

My response is "How much is it worth for for that to go away?"

Property taxes are non-existent because the area is blighted. I COMPLETELY agree with you. So then on that reasoning is it not safe to assume when the area stops being blighted that property taxes should go up?

And yes, they are underpaying. I live on Master St. I pay the highest property tax on my block. $350 a year. Majority pay around $200 IF they pay it.

What do you think $20 a month gets you for city services?

I am not saying to not care about people. I am just saying, if they are going to fight things that will improve their life for a cost not proportional to what they are getting (quality of life will get better hat a higher ratio than their property tax will go up over a 5 year period) AND keep it down for evryone around them, what can you ultimately EVER do to help them that won't always involve a handout?

And finally, about "Do you expect their usual battle-cry to be "I'm underpaying my property taxes. Please raise them?" What kinds of fools do you take them for?" That is exactly what I am talking about. MANY people in these neighborhoods keep it run down so property taxes WON'T go up. They don't want things to get better.

People can be as PC as they want and turn a blind eye to the way things work, but this is a case. These neighborhoods didn't just fall down, they were also rundown.

Like FHA loans. PHA, etc?

And then there are also people that assume someone that makes good money now didn't grow up poor and did see things from the other side. I remember food stamps. I remember dad being gone a month here and there to search other states for work. I remember one family vacation the whole time I grew up. I remember big tins of government peanut butter. But guess wht, dad made my butt go out and mow the lawn. A friend of mine, his dad gave him the old fashioned non-motorized lawn mower to use for no gas (like the one the Beaver is using on the intro to Leave it to Beaver). This was in the 80s and 90s. So, don't pull the "you don't know what it is like" card.

Fine, you work 3 jobs and no time to weed. What is your kid sitting on playstation? Send his butt out to weed.

I would like to know the statistics of people shot or mugged in front of their home at noon on a Saturday. That is a lame excuse not to weed. Also, who weeds while wearing their wallet or purse?

"and any sudden change in their budget is a distaster..."

And you know what? That is life. Any change will always upset someone's balance.

you are still assuming that the area looks the way it does becsuse the inhabitatnts let it get that way.


you have been here not long and you are still assuming situations. you think that its bad now, try to imagine what it was like 10 years ago.

understandable, but you are not black and you where not raised in north philly. you have no right to assume anything about your fellow neighbors. my mother was a prostitute and i to remember government cheese and powdered milk( yukk!), but there is no way that i can even come to assume the emotions of my fellow neighbors.

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www.rob-sutherland.com

Rob. I agree with you there are many factors. But I disagree with your idea that the inhabitants deserve no blame either.

Sure it was worse 10 years ago. What about before it started heading down in the toilet? A lot of people in my area have been around for 40 years.

Here is a good example why I lose more sympathy the longer I remain in the area. As many know, there was a murder in front of my house several weeks ago. My girlfriend and I were the only ones that gave the police a statement even though 8 people were standing around the body before I even got out the door.

I got a call from the police the other day. They made an arrest. You know where the killer was living? AROUND THE CORNER A BLOCK AWAY! The police said peopel around knew who did it. It just took them several weeks to pry the information out of some people.

So why should I feel sorry for the "poor black man" (you said I am not black so I can not know their feelings) crying about how crime and all thsi other stuff keeps them down and oppressed, but when their is a murderer running around no one wants to tell the police anything.

"Solve crime!! We need more police!" Bullshit. You need to report what you see! Didn't another poster say their neighbor saw their car broken in to, but didn't call the police?

People do not care! I don't care if they are black or martian. The attitude and actions are inexcusable. So, don't tell me I can't assume their emotions. I don't want to assume their emotions. When all is said and done in this life and you are buried in the ground, you are judged on your actions and what you did in life. If all you did in life is sit on yuor stoop and let murderers run around while feeling sorry for yourself, then you don't deserve anything good in life.

And that is another thing. Can't weed because you are worried about getting shot? Fear of getting shot sure doesn't keep people from sitting on their steps in front of their house at 11 pm at night talking loud and carrying on.

I know the tone in my post is probably coming off a bit 'loud' but I am not angry. I am just tired of people not taking any accountability, white, black, rich or poor. People say they don't trust the government, but they expect the government to do everything for them and to save them.

You can't help anyone that won't help themselves. If they give up on themselves, why shouldn't everyone give up on them as well then?

Master St West of Ridge Ave isn't exactly Francisville. I can see where your points might be much more valid in that neighborhood. In any case, I don't know a whole lot about that area, so I will neither agree or disagree with you at this point.

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• Write to your state and local elected officials
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still tyring to stick everyone in the projects are you? no, neighborhods with lower prices for homes. also, I pay nothing in property taxes yet I pay plenty for city taxes. that's really not a good way to look at it. very little of the city's budget comes from property taxes and that's a good thing. it's the wrong way to raise money. as for subsidizing (not paying your share)...you'll be paying even more if you put the in PHA housing. that argument doesn't make sense.

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"You down wit OPM?"
Fumo: "Yeah, you know me!"

It's hard to discuss the big picture on issues like this in a discussion board thread like this one. While your point that $20/month probably doesn't go too far in providing city services, it doesn't address the issue of whether or not they're paying "enough" in property taxes. If they're homes are properly assessed and the correct tax rate applied according the the city's system then, yes, they're paying "enough." Even then, you could argue one way or another.

You're point of view appears to be that the current way our society is structured, such that the more affluent all live in one geographic area, pooling their resources to buy good services while the less affluent are relegated to other geographic areas getting poor services. You also appear to like the current way things work that allow the affluent, to a certain extent, to choose which neighborhoods they live in and which the less affluent live in.

My point is that just because somebody's paying less in taxes than you doesn't mean they're paying less than their share and aren't entitled to a decent level of services. I'm not claiming that nobody's taxes should go up at all, just that I perceive an injustice and think something can and should be done about it.

1) We all already get wage-taxed out the wazoo. I think the city already has enough money to provide good services. We should be asking for more efficent government and more/better jobs rather than that our property taxes go up.

2) I don't follow your reasoning on how raising people's taxes automatically translates into less handouts.

Yes, I totally agree. Doesn't the system suck?

Once again, I'm not necessarily saying taxes shouldn't go up at all, or in all cases. I just think that raising people's taxes when somebody's income hasn't gone up proportionally isn't fair.

I think you're at least as guilty of "turning a blind eye to the way things work" as anyone else here.

__________________
Welcome to Philadelphia. Here's how you can help us make our great city even better:

• Write to your state and local elected officials
• Report suspicious activity to the police department

Raider.adam

I do not think my post deserved a diatribe like you posted.

I was providing an alternative point of view... sure there are the poor that are lazy, or deal drugs or have a merc and expedition hidden from the government etc etc ...

I never argued there are no people like that..

What I argued about, is open mind .. there are people genuinely struggling to make a living, and we should not pigeon hole them into some derogatory category, because their neighbors or some other poor blacks ( since that's who we are talking about ) are dishonest and just out to milk the system..

That is why we have war against welfare going on right now ... because people buy into the streotype of black/latino/asian urban welfare mothers etc while in reality, only a third of Blacks are poor on wellfare) and only a third of the poor are Blacks... most people on wellfare are poor whites in the southeast and other rural reagions - mostly farmers.... but you never hear talking-heads talk about them when discussin wellfare, do you?

What I am saying is that you have an image of a stereotype stuck in your head, and now you go around claiming that everyone who doesn't weed their front sidealk is a lazy bum... I believe you are wrong and you should realize that.

But I am affraid, you will simply come back with some smart ass, overzealous, derogatory counterargument, just to argue your point without even thinking about what I am actually trying to say..

Igor