I think Signatures was one contributor to the problems that plague 13th Street. The Parker Spruce is another contributor. There are many others. Shutting one may not have made a noticible difference. Maybe shutting one more won't either. But at some point there will be a difference.

Look at Times Square in NYC. When the first contributor, second, third ... contributor was closed nobody noticed. But eventually the area looked and felt different.

It can happen here and I think it would be a positive change.

Why do you think that? They actually chased the hookers and dealers off their corner. Now that they're gone, that corner is their main location. Trying to figure out how anyone makes a connection between a topless bar, which typically attracts hetero men with the gay and tranny prostitutes in the area.

I think the problems are broader than gay and tranny prostitutes. There is also drug dealing, general rowdiness, people "relieving" themselve in alleys, vandalism, theft and probably others. I think Signatures was one contributor to those problems. Maybe not the biggest and certainly not the only.

Why do you think they were a contributor? You listed problems but now how it links to Signatures. What is it about that establishment that makes you think it contributed? Just by virtue of it being a topless bar?

You're jumping to the same conclusions and making the same baseless accusations that the neighborhood groups did to get it closed down. There are plenty of dives in the area that cater to and attract thugs. But typically places that charge $20 covers and $6/beer aren't their usual hangout. Personally, I enjoyed visiting Sigs on occassion when it was there. And for the most part, the clientelle were businessmen who stopped in after work, and left the area as soon as they walked out the door. Occassionally a few bikers who did the same.

Like I said, they actually employed someone whose job was specifically to make sure nothing shady went on outside and to chase the dealers away from that corner. But I guess what people "think" based on their prejudice is enough these days to warrant ruining other peoples' livelihoods and/or entertainment.

It would be helpful if you could name some of the dives in the area that cater to and attract thugs. I'm sure there are many in the community that would like to shut them down as well.

Maybe you're right - maybe it is a coincidence that across America, topless bars are located in the same areas that are known for drug dealing and the other things I mentioned. I doubt it, but I'll admit I don't have any hard evidence to prove they are connected.

I'd be interested in any hard evidence you have that the customers of Signatures didn't engage in any of the other acitivites of the area. You gave your anecdotal view, I gave mine.

I don't think we're going to convince each other.

I think the Section 8 houses are way more detrimental to the neighborhood than Signatures was. How many calls did the police make to these houses in a month? Ridiculous. It's such a waste of taxpayer's money to have these perennial losers in a high rent area and a waste of time for the police to keep responding to their calls. At least Signatures paid their taxes....I think.

Not coincidence at all. It's by design. It's because of NIMBY attitudes that topless bars are relegated to seedier parts of town. That area was drug and hooker infested well before Signatures came along. It was allowed to open there because of the existing conditions.

Interesting approach. If you can prove that none of the residents, customers, employees, of any building anywhere do not engage in those activities, I'll be happy to oblige. Seems to me, you should have to prove they are involved before you shut down a business.

You're right. Was just hoping to get you or others reading this to apply critical thinking to decisions that effect others instead of relying on assumptions based on moral outrage.

[quote=KENfmt]Not coincidence at all. It's by design. It's because of NIMBY attitudes that topless bars are relegated to seedier parts of town. That area was drug and hooker infested well before Signatures came along. It was allowed to open there because of the existing conditions.

So this is chicken and egg! You say the drugs and hookers were there before Signatures. You may be right in this instance. What about elsewhere? Does the stip club ever arrive first and is then followed by drugs and hookers? I'm guessing you would say no. Interesting case would be the new strip club somewhere around Delaware Ave and Oregon.

It seems that by your logic, we could place a strip club at say 3rd and Delancey, pretty much the heart of Society Hill, and it wouldn't have any impact. I just don't agree with that premise.

There are nudy bars all over Manhattan not in seedy neighborhoods. Delilah's is three blocks away from my house and it doesn't attract any seedy element at all. In fact, most people wouldn't even know it was there.

The effort to stop Scores from opening was a bit overblown as well. 13th Street is seedy for a lot of reasons. I would say it has just as much to do with Pure, Woody's, and the other alley way bars in the neighborhood than it does with the Parker Spruce.

I have friends that live on S Sartain St. They love their street and neighbors, but a few times a year, they wake in the middle of the night to notice a fellow or two getting a b*** job in front of their house. Is that because of the Parker Spruce or Signatures? I think not. It's more likely because of Uncle's and the other bars in the neighborhoods.

Too many Parker Spruces in one place is probably a bad thing. But, it certainly isn't the reason for seediness in the neighborhood.

There are at least a couple of brothels around the corner from 3rd and Delancey now.

The hookers and drug dealers are there to cater to the patrons of the gay dance clubs in the area. Straight guys that go to topless bars don't pick up gay hookers or buy E tabs on the street.

There is one in the alley off of 15th behind the Bellevue. How's that area?

There is one at 38th and Chestnut. How's that area?

There is one at 20th and Market. How's that area?