Didn't anyone read the Center City District's latest literature about the expanded definition of center city? The center city district has, in effect, annexed these (and other) surrounding areas. So, I think that it is only fitting that they be included in this forum. People living in Bella Vista live in center city! I mean aren't people who live at 10th and bainbridge (technically Bella Vista) going to have a lot more in common--including problems--with people who live at 10th and Lombard than they will with people living at 2500 S. 10th??!!! of course!

Not true -

Center City District is simply marketing a series of neighborhoods that abut or are near Center City under a grant from (I believe) William Penn Foundation.

Center City is a planning definitiion and still runs from river to river, South to Spring Garden.

Within Center City are such neighborhoods as Old City, Society Hill, Wash West, Fitler Square, Chinatown (Part), Rittenhouse Square.

Center City District actually encompasses less. It does not include Society Hill, Headhouse Square, Old City, Fitler Square, and Chinatown - I'm sure I'm missing some.

Center City District did not want to deal with Old City, for instance, because of the high number of small businesses and small property owners. It was too much of a hassle for them.

We started Old City District as a result (we being Old City Civic Association, Historic East Market Street, Inc., Old City Arts Association). OCD is a totally separate organization and runs from Front to 5th, Walnut to Flower Street. Center City District stops at 6th Street.

There's no annexation going on.

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“Cities have the capability of providing something for everybody, only because, and only when, they are created by everybody.” - Jane Jacobs

I'm sorry for the double postings, so I won't repeat this in the other area.This is so confusing, though. For example:

1. The Queen Village Neighbors association, for instance, claims Lombard as the northern border of Queen Village. You're telling me that Lombard (society hill?) is in center city. So, is part of Queen Village in center city and part of it in South Philly?!!

2. I think that CULTURALLY both Queen Village and Bella Vista (but especially Bella Vista) are center city areas. I mean, come on...do you not feel you are in center city if you eat brunch at Morning Glory?

3. I feel that it would be a mistake for the residents of this area to align themselves or identify more closely with "South Philly" residents living FAR AWAY than their neighbors who live on the north side of South Street. It's ridiculous! I think that there was definitely a time when BV was "South Philly," but that time is over. It just doesn't work anymore.

They all have their own organizations and their own advocacy groups. And Bella Vista is a real part of South Philadelphia.

Next you'll be saying that Italian Market is really much more like Reading Terminal Market so it should be included in Center City.

Bottomline, Center City is simply a planning designation made up of lots of areas, many of which have quite different characteristics - Fitler Square is really quite different from Old City. Society Hill is different from Chinatown. I guess I don't understand the need to make them all the same. :what_is_:

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“Cities have the capability of providing something for everybody, only because, and only when, they are created by everybody.” - Jane Jacobs

Not completely true. Center City is also "downtown" Philadelphia. It is the heart of the city. It has many parts, but is an entity unto itself.

For the record -

Queen Village: Below South Street, along Delaware River to the vicinity of 8th and Carpenter Streets.

Bella Vista - Between 6th and 11th Streets, South Street to Washington Avenue.

http://www.phila.gov/phils/Docs/otherinfo/pname1.htm

Bella Vista as neighborhood is a recent developement, created in 1976.

http://www.phila.gov/phils/Docs/otherinfo/pname1.htm

Neighborhoods all have boundries, someone has to live on or near a line. For a map of these lines:

http://www.cml.upenn.edu/nbase/nbProfileIndex.asp

bgandersEn: I assumed that "downtown" didn't need to be mentioned as being part of Center City. If you had read some of the information I posted and linked, you would have seen a fuller assessment.

Still, Center City is a planning district - and it is made up of a number of different neighborhoods - including "downtown."

And Center City has different borders than the Center City District - which is a much smaller designation and does not include Fitler Square, Old City, Society Hill.

hr:
BellaVista has been around long before that - it was simply designated in 1976. Still, whenever it was "named." it was not part of Center City and owes much more of its roots to Italian sections of South Philadelphia.

The same listing (mostly from Ken Finkel's work) lists Center City as being formed in 1963. And Old City, America's most historic square mile was formed in the 1950's (huh).

As for the UPenn Nbase designation, it puts BellaVista together with Wharton and Hawthorne.

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“Cities have the capability of providing something for everybody, only because, and only when, they are created by everybody.” - Jane Jacobs

The lists states that the dates indicate the earlist use found, with a source, of the area being referred to by that name. Not when the area was formed.
I do know that Old(e) City was around prior to 1950.

This is kind of an aside, but I think the entire process of people living on neighborhood borders trying to identify with the more "upscale" or trendy neighborhood is hilarious. I know people who live off of Jefferson Square who claim to live in Queen Village. Sorry, it's Pennsport. I have friends who live on the tiny street between South and Lombard and also those who live in Headhouse Square who are adamant that they live in Society Hill and have nothing to do with the riff-raff on South St. There are those who live at 23rd and Christian or even further south who insist they are in Grad Hospital. People who actually live near Grad Hospital but closer to Bainbridge insist that they are in Fitler Square. Some who live near Fitler Square insist that they live in Rittenhouse...etc., etc., etc.

Hehe, I resemble that remark. I'm in the 1900 block of Bainbridge and I align myself with Rittenhouse Square (and my health is robust enough that I don't even think of the hospital). Not that there's anything wrong with hospitals, but I can't really see why anyone would name their neighborhood after one.

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Cheers,
Jayfar
--
“I am indeed well aware of the history of Conventional (sic) Hall, both globally and locally, and can assure you that we are carefully exploring avenues for its future.” -- Penn President Amy Gutmann 5 days before demolition began.