Now Orrmbl is differentiating between inner-ring suburbs and suburbs in general. The reason he left Upper Darby (and I am not harshing on it - I am rooting for UD township to not become the next Chester), is because 'urban' problems from West / Southwest Philly have spread beyond the city's boundaries and are presently engulfing the older parts of Delaware County. He needs to be intellectually honest - either 'urban' areas are great or something to be fled from. 'Urban' generally means older, pre-automobile, somewhat poorer, and having a higher minority population, which means that the schools are challenged. 'Suburban' generally means newer, post-automobile, wealthier, and whiter, which means the schools are supposedly hunky-dorey.

My wife and I are raising our kids in Philadelphia, just as my parents did with me and their parents did with them and their parents parents did with them and, believe it or not, my great-grandmother's and great-grandfather's parents did. I see no reason to break the chain. Both I and my wife are products of at least 16 years of private school, and we agreed before we got married that our kids would attend Quaker Schools. I am not one to make a deal and break it, so public schools were never really an issue; we built our finances around Quaker education before we even got married.

I read elsewhere, many times and over many years, that parents who move from the urban areas to the suburb areas so that their kids can be safe are actually increasing the likelihood of their kids (and themselves) being maimed or killed. Think about it: I know / knew many people killed or injured for life by automobiles, and I can't think of anyone I know / knew who was killed or injured for life by hoods / bad guys. I would bet that the same is true for the reader, especially so for a suburban reader. Keep in mind that I have spent my entire non-college life in the 'dangerous' city, and the casualties I am familiar with are automotive, not criminal. I am very apprehensive about when my kids become of driving age; I am not sure whether to disallow them from driving, as they won't need to, or to facilitate their driving, as I really don't want them to be passengers in an auto driven by a teenager I didn't raise. I am insulted as a landlord when parents who live in extremely dangerous places ask me if their daughter need fear for her safety living in my apartments, which are within walking distance of my home - this particular one was at the time within sight of my home. I once was so angry with that stupid question that I told them the truth: if she moved into that particular apartment in East Falls, the most dangerous part of her life would be when she went home to visit her parents in Gladwyne.

Malloy: if your mom had grown up in the burbs, or even raised you in the burbs, she would have a drivers' license and her own car. She is a city refugee, clinging to an old way of life. The rule in the Burbs today is one car per adult over the age of 16.

Yowza. Yeah, I’m here now after a week or so of being out of town and not checking for new posts. Imagine my surprise.

To answer your question: no, we haven’t come to a decision. I had to leave town for a funeral, and everything else took a back seat. But we’re still mulling options. Thanks to everyone who offered places to start looking. The names and areas really help. Part of my problem in even following this thread is that I moved to Center City three years ago and don’t have a car –- except for yearly jaunts to Devon and King of Prussia, I’ve rarely strayed more than two miles from my apartment, so most of the names that everyone are throwing around mean little to me. I’m going to sit down with this thread and Google Earth and try to make some sense of all the place names, how far away they are, etc.

As for me, I was born in New York City but spent most of my young life on a horse farm in a rural NYC suburb – not an urban sprawl area, but a place with land and privacy and fresh air. After high school I moved back to New York for college and am now in Philadelphia for grad school. If you had told the twenty-year-old-me that the thirty-year-old-me would still be living in a city, I wouldn’t have believed you. Because it’s my personal preference to live in a more isolated place where I can walk and ride in woods and not see another person, and where I can have a dog and not worry that he’s stir-crazy. That’s my choice, but I totally respect people who like city living. To each her own.

And no, we don’t have kids (and don’t plan to), so that’s not a factor for me.

Okay – back to the head-butting!

Brooklyncat,
I am neither trying to justify my life nor trying to hate on yours. But you seem quite unable to take anyone else's point of view but your own as accurate or valid.

Further it seems you are the one trying to feel good about the choices you have made.

As far as city living, I would rather live in New York with kids than Philly any day. Philly is dangerous and the schools are crapola...sorry but all your whining and kicking won't change those two things.

The Park slope story was something I read a few months ago and was relaying the gist...the stuff I read had NOTHING to do with real estate, property value and the like. But I love how you can't take things at face value and must turn it into a big anti-city conspiracy by us minivan driving earth spoilers.

Again, you need to get off your high horse or vespa or whatever you tool around your neighborhood in, and chill out.

And I'm still betting you have neither a spouse nor children, as I would think your opinion of some of the less choice elements of city life would be more front-of-mind than they currently are.

Why don't you go preach to the choir in another CITY area?

I'm not differentiating anything, you are splitting hairs. Urban means "in or of the city". Suburban means "outside the city." I recommended the inner ring suburbs I did for the access and cheaper housing, proximity to areas for horses (Cobbs Creek) and knew schools didn't matter. Brooklyncat mentioned inner ring suburbs and cost to live there; I was merely refuting that.

I loved the housing in DH and Lansdowne; if I didn't have kids or had a small fortune as it seems you have, I may have stayed.

I really don't think as landed gentry you can opine much about your life in comparison to people in the middle class and below. And I find it quite hypocritical to speak of your long history of city life...with private schooling! Give me a break already. How bout all the folks for which public schools are it, no options, no choices, no money? Would you then admit maybe they should move out to where better, safer schools were available to them for the same cost of living or less? More "bang for the buck" if you will?

You lost me many posts ago when you said your kids' classmates lived in Gladwyne...that is a strata of society with which most of are unfamiliar. To tell people how great city life is from the top of the food chain is tantamount to saying "Let them eat cake!"

This isn't addressed to me but i just don't get the comment; are you saying you don't believe that Malloy's mom doesn't have a license OR are you just stating that she doesn't have one b/c she is clinging to her city roots?? How about she's clinging to old fashioned way of just not having a car, and it has nothing to do with the city???

I was raised in UD and Drexel hill is right next door. One does not need a car to get around anywhere...the trolley is everywhere...and there's shopping centers everywhere..definitely within walking distance.

Hes saying that most, if not all, new burb folks get a car at age 16.

That fine, but it doesn't disqualify the experience my mom has in the burbs. They could have purchased a home in Newtown Square, but they chose a small, affordable rowhomw in Drexel Hill that is close to 'everything' No car, no problem.

I'm simply saying that its possible to go car free in the inner ring burbs, have a nice yard, skip the wage tax, spend less on a home, not deal with blight or trash and rarely if never see crime. Its not for me, but I see the appeal and possibility.

i completely agree. i have a friend in ardmore who is car-less and she manages to get around just fine. the R5 makes it possible for her to easily get into the city and she lives in walking distance to shopping, cafes, etc.

__________________
Freudian Slips: when you say one thing but mean your mother

You need to re-read your posts. You don't seem aware of how they are coming off.

I think it is you that's doing it. I said a million times I understand why people want to raise their kids in the suburbs...you are the one who is saying any other choice shows you don't give a crap about your kids. Who is judgemental?

I feel great about my choices. I'm not the one telling other people they live in a hellhole. I'm just pointing out that one may have other opinions of the suburbs than that they are heaven on earth.

You didn't live in New York in the 70s. Quite a different scenario than the comparison you are making. Yes, NY today is a more pleasant place to raise children, but you still have to negotiate the public school system, and saftey, and space.

I'm doing just fine. You are the one who seems angry that anyone might make choices different from yours. Does it undermine your self-satisfied feelings?

You'd be wrong.

Do you enjoy embodying the sterotype that suburban dwellers are defensive and narrow-minded? because you are doing a great job.

If your argument is it is better to be poor or lower-middle class in the suburbs than poor or lower-middle class in the city, I wouldn't disagree with you. But for people who have choices...well, they have choices, as billyross points out, and raising their kids in the city is one of them.

you sound freaked out that you've made all these sacrifices to live in the suburbs and not everyone might agree that you have done the best possible thing for your kids. relax. people enjoying raising their kids in the city does nothing to threaten your way of life.

__________________
Adlerian PLEASE SEEK ANOTHER THERAPIST, this one IS NOT WORKING

Have you tried PhillyCarShare? They're a great resource for non-car owners in the city. You could rent one for a day and take a map and explore lots of the area.

Your description of what you are looking for doesn't sound like suburbs, it sounds like something even farther out. That said, I'm always amazed by how close by really rural and peaceful areas are to Philly, unlike NYC where you have to travel several hours just to get rid of that "city" feeling.

Good luck with your search!

__________________
Adlerian PLEASE SEEK ANOTHER THERAPIST, this one IS NOT WORKING

orrmbl: you misunderstand me. My father was a steelworker, who never recovered from the collapse of the old-line steel industry in the early 80's. I was quite young at that time, and spent the rest of my student years quite poor. My first home in East Falls was a four bedroom house which cost me $25,000. I lived like a monk in a falling-down house for years until I finally got it fixed up. What I am saying is that I made sacrifices as a young man which allow me now as a parent to be able to afford to send my kids to the school of our choice. My choice to stay in the city and live cheap allowed me (and then us) to live cheap while I (we) built up capital. Now the future for which I worked so hard my whole life has arrived.

BTW: about a year after moving to my home on Stanton Street my $800 Oldsmobile was stolen from outside of my house. I immediately replaced it with a $2700 classic Chevy (in 1994). Since then I have never really had a personal vehicle, for daily use - I leave the Chevelle in the garage and take it out for special occasions. I bought a new work truck in 2005, but I went 11 years without a personal vehicle, and still try to avoid using my truck for anything but work. Imagine how much cash you would have now if you had given up having a personal vehicle for 11 years, and then bought a vehicle on which you put less than 5000 miles per year. Living in the city has allowed me to do this. If your fixed costs are low it makes investing easy. If you then make investments which pay off, you no longer need to live like a pauper. It is much easier to accumulate capital if you live cheaply, with cheap housing, cheap taxes, and cheap cars. I have never in my life (to this day) made very much money, but I have saved a very high percentage of what I made. My property taxes have always been relatively reasonable, and since I spent a large percentage of my time on non-taxable things like fixing up my car and fixing up my home, the city wage tax was never really all that bad.