Late '80s?

I lived here then and don't recall Arch being two-way at the time.

Maybe the early '80s?

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Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." --Mark Twain, A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

These two things are not at odds with each other, and are not mutually exclusive. Improvements to the business district do not come at the expense of the neighborhoods; in the long run, they make the neighborhoods better because a viable downtown economy provides employment, services, and ultimately tax revenue to those neighborhoods. Diverting redevelopment money from Center City to the neighborhoods might be an OK short-term strategy but it's a bad long-term strategy. See Street, John.

Of course, we shouldn't neglect the neighborhoods. They need and deserve investment too. But to cite the neighborhoods as a reason why Dilworth shouldn't be rebuilt seems silly.

I think the commuter tunnel runs underneath the front plaza but you're right, the BSL tunnel probably does run underneath the depression. It doesn't mean you can't building anything there but it does mean it's either likely to be very substantial to justify the costs or not very substantial. Still, even a one story retail strip would be better than what's there now...or move the ice skating rink as johnnie noted.

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"You down wit OPM?"
Fumo: "Yeah, you know me!"

Agreed. It looks like the architects were thinking, "Hmmm ... if they can put a glass pyramid in front of the Louvre, I bet we could put a glass ... a glass ... dammit, we need some geometry here ... anyway, we can put a glass thing in front of City Hall."

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---Shosh

It sounds like a lot of the Negadelphians are pointing out the same things they all said about Franklin Square before it was renovated. That seems to be a success and it's relatively detached from the city. Dilworth Plaza is a transportation hub for every subway and trolley line, it's the base of the central business district and the Avenue of the Arts, and it's overlooked by residents in several condos and apartment buildings. It's a haven for homeless because nobody spends any time there. Creating a legitimate human presence can be the best security. A number of other cities have established some sort of Screen-on-the-Green outdoor movie park which has been extremely successful. Having an ice skating rink right beside it is an added bonus to secure activity all year long. This brings evening life to the most significant intersection in the city and has the potential to even bring more business to perhaps occupy the barren courtyard of City Hall.

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The idealistic are no longer concerned with influencing public opinion and creating a free world of responsible and ethical social choices, but rather imposing opinion through legislation, mandating these ethics, and outlawing choice in what the loudest sample finds offensive.

Ban the Bans. It's a slippery slope between Idealism and Fascism.

Why is it "Negadelphian" to just think something is ugly?

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Would you care for some cheese with that whine? PBers possess a gene to whine about everything.

WE'RE PHILADELPHIA, DAMMIT! GET IT? GOOD!

I wasn't referring to the people who think it's ugly, I was referring to the people who think it's impractical to try to make Dilworth Plaza a notable attraction. I personlly think the design is a good looking one, but I respect those who don't.

The Negadelphians I am referring to are those who think we should settle for the status quo - i.e. leaving Dilworth Plaza and City Hall as they are. Sure we could spend money elsewhere, and we undoubtedly will. This plan isn't going down tomorrow, or likely in the next five years.

Nontheless, whether you like the renderings or not, I think it's significant that the city is beginning to look at making improvements to such an important public space. Also, keep in mind with the Convention Center getting a new main entrance one block away, for many conventioneers City Hall and any public space around it will be their first experience with Philadelphia.

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The idealistic are no longer concerned with influencing public opinion and creating a free world of responsible and ethical social choices, but rather imposing opinion through legislation, mandating these ethics, and outlawing choice in what the loudest sample finds offensive.

Ban the Bans. It's a slippery slope between Idealism and Fascism.

I think what was most interesting (to me from this thread) is that the whole concept of "dilworth plaza" was new and has been an unmitigated failure. We would have been just as well off had they left the street grid the way it was. how's the cafe coming along in front of the mexican post?
Also, I walked by the old "top shelf lounge" and the door was propped open. the bar appears to now be tiled, looked nice. any word?

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"You down wit OPM?"
Fumo: "Yeah, you know me!"

Of course I understand the impact that public spaces make on visitors. It's probably high time that governmental entities across the board implement professional planners, not urban planners-mind you, but those with the knowledge and expertise of social spaces and the impacts that they have on tourism functions. The overall effect can be much more useful to everyone, tourists and residents alike. The tourists appreciate a more authentic experience where they are immersed into a real-life situation; when they want DisneyWorld, they take Disney!

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Would you care for some cheese with that whine? PBers possess a gene to whine about everything.

WE'RE PHILADELPHIA, DAMMIT! GET IT? GOOD!

I don't know if I'd go that far. I was walking along City Hall's north edge yesterday, and on nice sunny days, with the fountain going, and the plaza occupied by office workers instead of the homeless, it is a not-unattractive space. The concept of a public space on multiple levels with multiple access points is actually an interesting one, but probably not well-suited to the particulars of that location, ie: isolated by six-plus traffic lanes, hidden from the street, and with only one adjacent function (office space in City Hall).

A redesign, if it ever happens, should take advantage of Dilworth's assets - central location and transit connections - and add in more uses: recreation, civic space, a cafe, etc. Perhaps some rooms in City Hall could even be redesigned to open onto the plaza. Possibly a new name, either more general (West Penn Square) or accessible to contemporary users (Thunda Plaza)?