Holy Crap! Was that the final tally? The building needs to be maintained, and so does the plaza, but please don't suffer from SRD (Selective Reading Disorder), the way eldondre does. Not saying that nothing should be done, but in a city with potholes bigger than craters, maybe some of the more fanciful plans should be put aside for now. Bring on the cafes, I have clearly gone on record for those, they add something nice to the plaza.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xCiKCxfYqE

"If we can't learn from our mistakes, what's the point of making them!" ...my friend Richard.

"You are protected by the enormity of your stupidity." Mother to son Victor, in "Notorious"

I don't agree with all of Zur's premises, but I think his conclusions are right on target (as are those of the other posters who were ahead of me today in criticizing the Dilworth remake plan). The plan is unnecessary, and the money could be better spent on other projects. And it is questionable whether planting grass, covering over the concourse openings, and adding a few fountains will solve the plaza's problems.

Basically, Dilworth Plaza serves as a formal front yard to set off the architecture of City Hall. It is useful for rallies, public ceremonies, fair booths, etc. -- and would be even more useful for these kinds of activities with several minor touches, such as clearing away some of the fussy balustrades and steps on the southern portion of the plaza. And as zur says, trim the trees and add a cafe.

But that being said, even more could be done, with relatively few alterations to the design, to make people want to linger there. Actually, I don't think that the plaza has ever been fully or properly utilized as a "destination" since its creation.

The sunken section in the northern part of Dilworth Plaza, for example, could have many potential uses. It could serve as a venue for showing films at night -- without the distractions of automobile noise and headlights, which the new remodeling plan seems to ignore. Extend and widen the entrance steps to this section, so people can sit on them (a sort of "Spanish Steps" effect. An outdoor cafe could be placed there (heated in the winter), with a branch of the Free Library, perhaps, just inside. And a bandstand could be placed in this sunken section, where chamber music, jazz, etc. could be scheduled. Perhaps a dance floor.

Instead of benches, there would be chairs and small tables (like they have in the parks in Paris) that cafe or library patrons could move around -- and which could be taken in at night.

This sunken section uses attractive stone blocks that complement City Hall itself. But the area is rather cold. In the warmer months, add bright flower pots hanging from angle irons between the arches. Also add gas lamps on the walls for night illumination. At the northern end, I see a large Calder mobile, or something similar.

In addition, of course, I agree with DCinPhilly that improved public use of the ground floor of City Hall and the central courtyard would bring more people to the plaza.

The proposed glass arch appears to me as more unnecessary clutter -- the sort of device that people a generation from now will be shaking their heads over ("what was in their minds when they built that thing?"), like we do to the ugly boxes of the 1960s. As for the ice rink, isn't it true that one is set up in the wintertime over the fountain in Love Park? That seems like the perfect location for it. Why is it necessary to build another one practically across the street?

Nanyika

possibly due to poor design.
possibly because the new plan recognizes that the old plan, which took into account noise and headlights, was a dramatic failure. That people, including myself who is part of the target market for an overhaul, would rather have noise and headlights than sit in a sunken area next to city hall. and god knows who would actually want to watch a movie down there. Perhaps the biggest problem is the fact that it's cut off from street level.

all of which would likely do better at street level where it woudl have free advertising.
barring anything else, this would be an improvement but I'm not sure where the indoor part of the cafe woudl go in its current configuration.


if that's true, why does someone in San Francisco know about it but the residents of Philadelphia (mind you, people who live in center city and its surrrounding environs)seem unaware of it? That would seem to be an argument against the design of LOVE Park as well. Actually, I don't see how that's any better than either city hall or the MSB plaza.

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Some comments on some recent posts:

--A sunken plaza is not an inherently hostile space, but its success probably depends even more on what surrounds it than a surface plaza does. Consider that Rockefeller Center's center is the sunken plaza in front of the GE (nee RCA) Building. The difference is that the Rockefeller Center plaza is actively used -- as an outdoor cafe during the summer and an ice rink in the winter -- and has other uses (the underground shopping course and the immediately adjacent office buildings) right next to it; by contrast, there is no active use for the Dilworth space, the only building immediately adjacent is City Hall, and none of the activity in the Penn Center concourse or even City Hall directly spills into the plaza.

When the sunken plaza at Dilworth Plaza was briefly transformed into a multiethnic bazaar during some sort of festival early in Mayor Street's first term, it became a space people wanted to go to for a brief while -- the festival changed the perception of the space enough that I recall someone in the Street Administration suggesting that they would explore ways to get some sort of permanent retail or activity there. Nothing came of that, unfortunately. It would take some major modifications to make the Dilworth plaza suitable for year-round retail or cafe operations, but they might be less costly than redoing that space entirely and have a much larger payoff.

I agree that changing the uses of City Hall's ground floor by adding some sort of amenity (cafe, library...) would also help.

--The fountain in JFK Plaza (LOVE Park) is not converted to an ice rink in the winter. The only public ice rink in Center City is the Blue Cross River Rink at Penn's Landing. That idea for reusing Dilworth Plaza is not redundant at all.

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I recently took a trip to Ireland for a wedding and of course site seeing. While touring Belfast they had an awesome festival in the plaza in front of their city hall (which is not unlike Philly's). They had all sorts of vendors, from food and dining to clothing and accessories and artists.

Maybe if Philly put Dillworth Plaza to similar use on the weekends it would become more of a hub for socializing than simply just a pass-through.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...g?t=1213111879

Not a multi-ethnic bazaar, but part of the sister cities festival with Florence, Italy (the artisans from Florence were just amazing, and put on live displays of their art). The kiosks below, at concourse level, were used as they were intended to be used--as little shops. A good hosing down regularly could really help that area, and more light and air!

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xCiKCxfYqE

"If we can't learn from our mistakes, what's the point of making them!" ...my friend Richard.

"You are protected by the enormity of your stupidity." Mother to son Victor, in "Notorious"

Then they no longer set up the ice rink in Love Park? Too bad. I wasn't sure, and that's why I phrased the reference as a question in my earlier post. Thank you for the correction, eldondre.

But don't be too hard on me when I make goofs like that. My memories of the area go back some 60 years, and sometimes I feel like Rip Van Winkle, seeing structures torn down and built up. I can remember Broad St. Station and the Chinese Wall fairly clearly, as well as the parking lot that replaced it for many years until Dilworth Plaza was constructed.

And I remember, of course, the outdoor ice skating rink in the concourse opening at 16th St. in Penn Center -- which seemed to me to be very popular over the years. Isn't that gone too?

The early sketches for Dilworth Plaza (cc. 1960) saw it as more of an open area, with less space given to the sunken enclosures. From the beginning of the actual construction of Dilworth Plaza, I felt that the layout (particularly the sunken areas) was problematical, much as eldondre does, and I have pondered many "solutions" over the years when visiting the space. But I am not convinced that the current plans for a radical makeover are better than giving a few relatively inexpensive tweaks to what is there now.

Nanyika

I can't *ever* remember Love Park having a skating rink, but it would be right across from where the 16th St skating rink was, and has LONG been defunct.

The radical makeover is silly, tweaks would be better, and the cubes, ugh!

__________________


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xCiKCxfYqE

"If we can't learn from our mistakes, what's the point of making them!" ...my friend Richard.

"You are protected by the enormity of your stupidity." Mother to son Victor, in "Notorious"

Allow skateboarding. Skaters typically don't harass anyone (mainly just videotape themselves ollieing over benches), provide built-in security just by being active, and will actually use the park for more than just eating lunch. Philly seriously f-ed up by banning skating in Love Park.

I couldn't confirm it either, as LOVE is some place I walk by, but not through in the winter.
it seems many of us agree that a downtown rink would do well...and the two best locations seem to be dilworth and MSB. As for LOVE, I think the park commission should lease out the circular welcome ctr.

Nanyika and/or Sandy- would you also agree that dilworth plaza is NOT an important transit access point? Bear in mind that the only people without a closer access point are people going to/from city Hall itself. As such, I think reducing dilworth's use as a transit plaza is important. It needs to serve surface users or to draw non-transit users into the area. as it is, it's built to serve transit users who have little need to go there.

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