trolleys cost less in the long run, the 23 shoudl be broken apart now before trolley service calcifies a bad route even more. A surface route through a giant railyard 9which will also be more important as the price of gas increases) is still a worse option than an extension of an existing subway. the waterfront is already off the el, why no development there?
DRPA has a heavy debt burden as it is because they spent money on economic development projects. why is it the responsibility of the people driving over the bridge to subsidize waterfront development?

__________________
"You down wit OPM?"
Fumo: "Yeah, you know me!"

becuz the el isn't sexy. john q. condo isn't going to ride that thing.

however, i'm not sure if that justifies providing a redundant service.

i agree. they should worry about paying off existing debt before sinking money into another poorly thought out project. furthermore. and commuter tolls should go toward mass transit that's related to commuting.

__________________
My restlessness is my nemesis.

Gotta correct you on one statement here: The Frankford El really doesn't serve the waterfront.

The closest it gets to the Delaware is at 2d Street and Spring Garden stations, each about two blocks from the river. Past Spring Garden, the El continues due north for about two miles before turning NE over Kensington Avenue, while the Delaware turns NE right above Spring Garden Street. Once it turns NE, the El runs parallel to but about 2-2.5 miles W of the Delaware, too far away to really shape waterfront development at all.

Keep in mind that the legislation expanding the Delaware River Port Authority's powers passed about 15 years ago had as its aim transforming what was then simply a glorified version of the Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission upriver into an agency more like its identically named counterpart on the Hudson, which has always been responsible for overseeing the Port of New York (the agency's original name was the Port of New York Authority; it was renamed when the Jerseyites rightly objected that said port included facilities in two states). It never actually achieved that function, in no small part because the two states retained their individual maritime port agencies as separate entities rather than folding them into the DRPA -- but in hindsight, that might have been a blessing in disguise, for that allowed the impasse over dredging the Delaware to be broken by dumping (heh-heh) the whole project into Pennsylvania's lap.

Were the DRPA responsible for everything the PANYNJ is, it would also operate Philadelphia International Airport and the Delaware River piers on both sides directly. Since it isn't, but since it was also charged with stimulating economic development along the river, its board went off in search of things to stimulate -- mainly themselves, it appears.

__________________
Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia
“Basically I figure guns are like gays: They seem a lot more sinister and threatening until you get to know a few; and once you have one in the house, you can get downright defensive about them.” --Theresa Neilson Hayden

that's a clarification of my point. If transit were all it took, then that area around SG woudl have developed a long time ago (I wasn't referring to the whole waterfront).

well, I think we can all agree here that stimulating oneself is more important than other people, particularly ones you've never met.

__________________
"You down wit OPM?"
Fumo: "Yeah, you know me!"

For ...
New Jersey has residents who have casino experience.
This would make their commute easier.
Casinos will hire experienced people for the management jobs.
Few if any residents of Philadelphia will qualify for these positions.

For ...
New Jersey casinos are renovating and trending more upscale.
They don't want anything but high rollers.
The evidence is the train service from NYC.

__________________
Save gas ... support your local Bar, Pub or Restaurants !

my two cents... i think that step 1 in revamping PATCO on the PA side is opening up Franklin Square Station. then all the rest of this stuff can come after. (it'll probably come a lot later though)

My understanding of the history is that Franklin Sq Station has been opened and closed several times, each cycle ending when ridership didn't justify trains stopping at the station.

el, the only El station that services the Waterfront directly--Spring Garden--is right smack dab in the middle of a very scary 95 underpass (hence nobody uses it). If the entrance were made safer and better lit, then IMHO the ridership at that stop would jump n-fold.
Also, several of the stalled riverfront condos (101 Sky, Hoboken Brownstone) were located in easy walking distance from the stop.

I won't argue that the 23 is a bad route, but doesn't it have extremely high ridership? Hardly sounds like a bad route to me...

I think they could reinstate trolley services along parts of the route where it makes sense--Chestnut Hill to Erie, Temple to Center City, Center City to the Zoo. And make these bad boys sexy, too. It could really spark development.
I took the El to 69th St rush hour one day and I was amazed that there so many office rats in suits using it. Although it's not as sexy as the Regional Rail, the El is far sexier than the sub, and it shows.

__________________
...don't forget Biden, too!

I won't disagree with you there, I generally choose girard over SG unless it's much closer to SG.
that's misleading. It's a long route that is really a few smaller routes rolled into one. I could increase route ridership elsewhere if I simply add them together but that doesn't make it sensible. As it is, the 23 is incredibly unreliable and, to my knowldge, much of the ridership turns over with the heaviest ridership on G-town ave. The way it's currently configured, a poor parking job in south philly could cause a trolley to be 30 minutes late in germantown. (or a bus). Prior to restoring trolley service, SEPTA should play with routing.
I'd skip the middle one as it is oen of the slowest parts with teh least benefit. If they build the PATCO extension with the SS routes, what about a Germantown Ave trolley that connects via the SS extension through Northern Liberties? Temple is already well served by a subway and RR. Devlopment along hte BSL has also been slow. It's not a surefire bet.
what's the sub?

__________________
"You down wit OPM?"
Fumo: "Yeah, you know me!"

I believe that the present population of Old City is over 10xs what it was the last time the Franklin Square station was open. Franklin Square at that time was Philadelphia's skid row, memorably chronicled by the late Jane Jacobs. Now it is a tourist destination, not to mention the condos next to it and the National Constitution Center. It is idiotic that that station is still closed.