There's smaller need for the PATCO proposals on this side of the river. I'd recomend scaling it down. PATCO could be more useful by moving the 11th st station west to broad and the 16th st station west to rittenhouse. also, if they can accept SEPTA's new fare cards that will be a huge plus. Philadelphia should probably start smaller, say, the Navy Yard expansion of the BSL. With a seamless transfer from the PATCO to the BSL, they''' have accomplished access to the Navy Yard without the ridiculous surface transit proposal that lists it as a "future project." Once the Navy Yard extension is done, the city shoudl turn its head to some other projects:

• subway/flyover for the R1 to prevent awkward moves and enable frequent service to the airport (every 10-15 min)
• improved service to North Philly, NW, and NE

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"You down wit OPM?"
Fumo: "Yeah, you know me!"

PATCO already did their part in this, I think...

I will support PATCO, whatever they do, because it would be nice for a transit agency to do something in Pennsylvania.

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...don't forget Biden, too!

Indeed PATCO did do its part by adopting an industry standard for interoperability. Word is that SEPTA wants a more sophisticated technology that would, for instance, let riders use their debit/credit cards as fare media directly, something not currently possible on existing systems but which is being worked on as I type this.

There is, of course, nothing inherent in the technology that should prevent it from working with the APTA interoperability standard, and I trust that whatever SEPTA selects would be "backwards compatible" with it.

As for eldondre's proposal, something tells me that the cost of building an interchange station at the point where the Locust Street Subway dips below Walnut-Locust station on the Broad Street Line, along with the connections between the two -- which would include two new sets of fare barriers that would probably need to be located at the now-closed-off south end of the Walnut-Locust platform -- and the extra excavation that would be needed to produce a level 6-car platform and wider tunnel at the crossunder point -- might end up costing as much as that light rail line would, though perhaps less than the combo of a light rail line and Subway-Surface trolley tunnel extension would.

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Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia
"Perpetual optimism is a force multiplier." --Gen. Colin Powell

We've had eight years of "decisive," "experienced" "leadership." Why not try intelligence this time around?

I don't agree w/ that if it means compromising the NJ expansion.

The PA alts have marginal benefit.
Transit dollars should be directed elsewhere in the city.

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My restlessness is my nemesis.

I don't believe an allsurface route is the preferred alternative...of course, you may have gathered that I don't think any of them are the preferred alternative. It might make some sense to extend the SS under market as originally envisioned as a means of extending the SS routes to north and south philly...otherwise, let's work on the BSL extensions and forget about these jokes. was there really never a plan to integrate the locust st subway with the broad st line despite the fact they were to be oeprated by the same entity?

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"You down wit OPM?"
Fumo: "Yeah, you know me!"

That died when the downtown subway loop originally called for in the 1913 A. Merritt Taylor rapid transit expansion plan got scrubbed when work resumed on the Broad Street Subway ~1925. The Ridge Spur and Locust Street subways were the "Plan B" to provide one-seat access to the downtown shops around 8th and Market for Broad Street riders.

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Sandy Smith, Exile on Market Street, Philadelphia
"Perpetual optimism is a force multiplier." --Gen. Colin Powell

We've had eight years of "decisive," "experienced" "leadership." Why not try intelligence this time around?

gotta say, it's a better plan than a street running trolley down columbus with SS connection. you could extend PATCO to 20th and market.

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"You down wit OPM?"
Fumo: "Yeah, you know me!"

I was walking around the NoLibs riverfront earlier today--mostly the same wasteland it's been since, like, forever, by the way--and it struck me that--especially given its proximity to three well-developed neighborhoods (Northern Liberties, Fishtown, Old City) the riverfront here needs only a big catalytic spark to develop into the city's next major destination. Now, with the Penn Praxis plan, improving transit connections on the waterfront doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

Also, DRPA invests quite a few PATCO dollars in along-the-line development. Since the waterfront is underdeveloped, on the verge of development, and needs a catalyst to become the destination we know it hides inside, and DRPA will most likely provide $$$ for some new developments if they have a transit interest in them.

I also think that the line as it currently runs is designed in such a way as to pretty much extort some more money out of Sugarhouse and Foxwoods.

And I remember reading somewhere that a trolley is 170 (!) times cheaper to build, per mile, than a subway. Granted, we need a Boulevard subway and the Navy Yard extension, but I think PATCO thinks they're more SEPTA projects than anything else.

And, el, PATCO's Navy Yard extension isn't Phase I of the project. And by the time these things get off the ground--2010 at the earliest, me thinks--the price of gas will be so sky high that even SEPTA will be forced to reconsider their reactionary attitude and refusal to restart trolley service along the 23 and 56--because TROLLEYS COST LESS. Mile for mile, trolleys have the lowest operational costs of any mass-transit vehicle.

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...don't forget Biden, too!

The mission of the Delaware River Port Authority is to develop the Delaware Waterfront. A capitalist society such as ours leads to efficient allocation of resources only so much as those resources are distributed efficiently. If you don't like it, move to Cuba.

I think that linking the Camden and Philly waterfronts and making them destinations are worthwhile goals, and the riverfront trolley supports this. As a matter of fact, I am wholeheartedly in support of it, even though I am a Schuylkill kind of guy. Other projects can find their own tooth fairies.

COME ON SUGURHOUSE!!!!

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"And Lord, I pray that you would guard your own reputation, because they're going to think that their god is bigger than you, if that happens. So I pray that you will step forward and honor your own name with all that happens between now and Election Day."--Rev. Arnold Conrad