While some for of trolley line on Columbus would be great, there are a number of issues with this as pointed out in other threads by people far more knowledgeable than I about rails. Something about the gauge of the track being wrong for passenger trains/trolleys. There is also the fact that the rails are still in use regularly for freight car transfer/shifting ....meaning you can't switch the rails, and the freight trains would get in the way of the passenger trains/trolleys. Also, SEPTA can't handle what it has now, there is no way they can manage to build and operate ANOTHER line.

Let's not make this about the casinos and whether they are good or bad. Let's assume they are coming and bringing lots of cars with them. Traffic needs to be addressed NOW in preparation for what seems the imminent arrival of the casinos. Even in the casino's own plans for traffic mitigation they admit that it will be at least 5 yrs before any of their plans (ie ramps to 95) are implemented. Those numbers are more like 10yrs if you ask PennDOT. Even taking the lowest estimate of added vehicles per day and the shortest timeline to ramp completion, we are still looking at 5yrs with 10,000 cars per day on an already overloaded roadway.

a.) it was built by the pennsylvania railroad, which means that it has/had standard gauge. the bsl runs on standard gauge, as do the 100 and the r lines; the river line on the other side of the del also runs along standard gauge. ergo, there is no problem with the gauge, unless u wanna run the kawasakis on them.
b.) the r5 lansdale/doylestown line, the r6 thru norristown, the r2 to warminster, the r3 out by west trenton, likely the r3 to elwin, the part of the r1 airport line along the old chester branch, and the aforesaid river line, as well as some i likely forgot to mention, all run on active freight lines. in fact, if u care to take a ride on the river line, you'll see that it skirts a major yard just north of camden. therefore, it's not impossible to schedule commuter trains or trams with a freight line, and i doubt that port service counts as a heavy main.
c.) yes, septa has its problems, but why not have patco, who does also have experince running trains in the city, too, run that line? insofar as i know, patco is a sub of the drpa, and hasnt been struggling with wrangling the money out of harryburg every year. and patco's facilities are all nicer, too. also nj transit has a s**tload of dmu's parked in their facilities along the river line; until they could find their own dmu equipment, im sure, given patco's unique rapport with both septa and nj transit, they could get away with leasing a few, although the ones nj transit seem to be considerably wider than the likely del ave clearances will allow.

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Ah, but I was considering this as a trolley route not a train route. And as I understand it, the SEPTA trolley's run on "Broad Guage" tracks and could not run on Columbus. I was not considering using new trolley cars, trains, or having PATCO or NJT operate it.

I'd love it if there was a light rail or trolley line on Columbus. I might actually consider going down to the stadiums every once in a while. As it is, the idea of driving there, taking a cab, or taking two buses doesn't appeal to me. The addition of the casino traffic will probably keep my car off Columbus forever.

Given all that, any idea why they aren't doing it? What are the roadblocks?

SEPTA has no money and doesn't know how to run what they have.
The City isn't going to pay for it.
The state isn't going to pay for it.
The federal government isn't going to pay for it.
I don't know if there is truly enough potential volume to justify building a new line.
I don't know if NJT or PATCO would be "allowed" to come into Philly and run a public transportation line. I realize the PATCO train runs into Philly but that is just a portion of their line. We are talking about a line that only runs in Philly.

Out of curiousity, what needs to be paid for? SEPTA has the trains (bsl trains apparently fit the track gauge?). The tracks are there. I haven't paid enough attention lately to notice if the tracks no longer connect to the larger system. Is that the issue?

i think they connect via that railyard south of pattison.

patco is owned by drpa, who DOES have some plans involving that line, if you check out their website, and drpa has the authority to develop anything along the waterfront (they ARE the port authority, after all).

the problem with the bsl trains is that they're third-rail trains, which is obvs a disaster waiting to happen with an at-grade line like the del ave one.

and yeah, the demand is there. trains are always preferable to buses, and getting from market east to head house square requires three transfers. id ride it, for one...

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There's no real reason to run a trolley on Del Ave.

It's pretty much low density retail with some big box. Lotsa muni and open space...

Few residential areas (or is 95 not cutting everything off now...I always forget what we say)


For any rail system to work ($ = riders) it has to move commuters from home to employment.

Not sure how that would happen on Del Ave.

If anything light rail cripples traffic... see Baltimore, Chester and now Girard Ave.


At least on Girard you have medium density residential and connections to the BSL and MFL.

Could you even connect a Del Ave line with any other heavy rail?


Also...it's single track...is still in use and stops well below Market and would therefore fall under FRA rules.


Casinos are bad? Try having a train horn blow for 3 seconds at every intersection.


The 25 has really poor ridership. It's the bus that currently runs that route.



Time the lights, add one more off and on ramp between Washington and Packer.

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yes, the line could easily connect with the mfl at 2nd, spring garden, or girard stations; one of the drpa plans (the most cost-effective one) contemplates reopening franklin square sta. on the patco; it already connects with the pattison railyard which connects with the nec; the part north of south is most certainly NOT in use; construction north of the ben franklin bridge is almost entirely residential; and if the waterfront were well-developed, there would be business, parklands, hotels, and residential...this is a part of the city that really desparately needs a new transit route. what would you have them do, build a subway under second st.?--oh but right, you're a gas-guzzling republican ...when you consider this proposal, espcially compared with other proposals, you'll see that most of the infrastructure's already there, and that, with proper development in the area, ridership can only increase, plus, lrvs are green. the only major problems are that it would need diesels and that much of the line is single-tracked. and i believe i already addressed how much of a problem the active freight line is, so please don't bring it up.

why not use this lrv line as the centerpiece of a redevelopment of penns landing into a fairground? i beleive you were the one who suggested it...

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It can't easily connect with a subway station 2 blocks through an interstate.

It could get about 2 blocks away from Spring Garden on foot.

It's nowhere near Girard..

Subways are about 200 Million 1/4 mile.

Most importantly...transit needs to move people from work to home. This wouldn't do that.

I'd like to see the 25 bus carry enough passengers to at least break even on operating costs before we dump 700 Million for a new line.

PATCO... extending into South Jersy pulls thousands of cars out of Center City.

A LRV on Del Ave is about as functional as the defunct trolley line that used to operate on the exact tract your talking about.

http://www.phillyblog.com/philly/get...nsit-line.html

It has 3. The MFL, the Route 15 Trolley and multiple bus lines.

I don't see people tripping over themselves to relocate along the 15 line. (If it isn't running buses as well)

It's also not residential. It's industrial...like where all the nighclubs used to be.. and the Coal Generating station..or the Asphalt plant..or the Tioga Terminal or the...

The residential area has a elevated train already.

Um.. the freight line makes the whole thing FRA territory...

So yeah..it matters (see: NJ Riverline... not really a success as much as a consolation prize for North Jersey getting something)

I'm a registered Democrat who took Septa for at least 10 years as my sole mode of transportation...and from Franklin Mills to Penn for 2 years recently.


I did... as a means to highlight smart and fundable growth.. like large scale retail mixed with dense residential and parkland.

You need density to make transit work..


Sorry to be harsh but you could like...read threads that discuss this.


Also... this **** is really expensive...like you saying...geez a bently would get me laid but I work at McDonald's.


Philly works at McDonald's and is eying up a Bentley with this plan.

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