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Old 10-03-2006, 02:53 PM
citizen-viewer citizen-viewer is offline
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Default facade falling off?

I've been looking for info on what seems to be a common phenomenon in Philadelphia, but I can't find a good discussion of it in the Phillyblog archives or elsewhere.

I'm considering making on offer on a rowhouse in South Philadelphia (Moyamensing). The place has a relatively new facade (about 20 years old) that replaced the original. The facade looks fine -- well, ugly but solid -- but there are pretty big cracks on all three floors, on the inside, running vertically from the upper corners on either side of the front wall. Up to a half-inch wide. It seems like the new facade is too heavy, or not fastened on well enough.

I realize that star bolts are often used to pull in bulges on original facades that were made of soft brick. But this is a solid, hard brick replacement facade -- it seems as if the thing is moving, or has moved, in one big piece.

I also realize that I will have to hire a structural engineer before putting down significant money, but I wanted to get an idea of what the options are to fix this and what they might cost. I would even consider replacing the facade, depending on the cost. Or maybe the thing isn't moving any more and I could just fill in the cracks and forget about them.

I should also mention that there is a hollow sound to the basement floor, and very shallow bedrock that intrudes into the back part of the basement, so I wonder if there might be subsidence from shallow-flowing water under there -- and if that might be part of the problem, i.e., that the facade is being undermined. I saw another house three doors down that had the same problem.

Has anyone else dealt with this? Is this a deal-killer? Any advice?
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Old 10-03-2006, 03:46 PM
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I don't work in the field, but am in the process of rehabbing a house that had serious structural issues and required a lot of masonry work. I'd definitely say to get the opinion of a structural engineer as well as a home inspector, and to include a contingency for inspections if you're making an offer. (Talk to your real estate agent about this.) If the problem could be complicated, you may even want to get more than one engineer, because they don't always agree. Also make sure the person is a P.E. (public engineer) and has a current license.

It's hard to know what it would cost before someone qualified evaluates the work required. Star bolts, I've been told, cost about $500 each, so if it took 2 it would be $1,000, if it took 4 it would be $2,000 and so on. (That probably wouldn't include the cost of fixing the interior drywall once they had been installed, which you could do yourself or on the cheap if so inclined.) If the facade needs to be replaced, it might be, from what I've been told, maybe $5,000-$15,000 depending on the scope of work and the particular contractor you chose. If the whole thing is undermined, it can be underpinned, probably for a few thousand to several thousand. So it's totally different if it needs just star bolts, star bolts plus underpinning, rebuilding, or all of the above. It also makes a difference if you're willing to do some of the work yourself.

These are just some rough ideas from the quotes I've gotten from contractors. Shell out the few hundred bucks to get it evaluated now, and you'll know if you're looking at $1,000 or $40,000.
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Old 10-03-2006, 04:40 PM
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we put starbolts in when we bought last year. it was around $700 a bolt, we needed six, which sucked, cause it was an expense we were not anticipating.

my engineer's gut feeling was to rebuild the facade she quoted me around $30k to have it done right, that's the hard part .......getting it done right.

it sounds like this house had it done, but it certainly wasn't done correctly. I had 3 estimates for the 6 bolts ranging from a total of $1500 - $8k obviously the low ballers had no idea what they were talking about. and the over priced thought i didn't know what i was talking about.

bottom line just be careful & get several opinions from engineers & masons , if it sounds too good,......... you know the rest.
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Old 10-03-2006, 04:58 PM
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Starbolts are designed to pull a bulging facade back towards the house, usually on old and possibly historical buildings.

Without seeing the problem it's hard to make any assessment but from your description it seems like the front is shifting.

If it's shifting starbolts wont stop it and , it's probably due to undermining or an improper footing depth/strength.

Like I said, without seeing it, it's hard to make an assement but you certainly need someone else to evaluate the situation.
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Old 10-03-2006, 06:07 PM
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I agree with dogfaceboy. Not too uncommon for somebody to put another layer of brick on the facade without a proper footing under it. If that's the case, you definitely do not want starbolts. As the unsupported outer layer of brick continues to settle, it will pull the rest of the front of the house with it.

Best best is the engineer. If it's any consolation, I had an engineer look at the front of a house I'm working on that looked to me as if it could collapse any second (well OK, I'm exagerating a little, but it looked pretty bad -- bad enough that I paid an engineer). The engineer said it was fine. Architect said same thing. Go figure.
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Old 10-04-2006, 12:58 PM
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Thanks, everybody, for the input! Further insights would of course be appreciated, but the picture is already much clearer.
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Old 10-05-2006, 09:24 AM
Strange Tanks Strange Tanks is offline
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On row homes (99% of the time) the front and rear brick walls are not structural items. In other words, you can remove the entire front of a row home and it would still be standing just fine. In the old days the mortar between the bricks was made with lime, this makes a mortar thats softer and doesnt stick to the bricks as hard as todays portland cement. The result is that all the strength of an old brick wall comes from how vertical it is. Older brick walls are somewhat flexible, the bond between the mortar and the brick will fail long before the bricks do. Thats why in older walls they will bow, newer brick will crack along the bricks themselves. The stars act like a giant washer connected to a threaded rod run into 2 or 3 of the joists inside. Sounds like you have about an inch of bow (you can most often see it in the seam between the floor and the front wall, often covered with caulk, carpet or trim). Get a few stars and you should be fine.
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Old 10-05-2006, 07:09 PM
citizen-viewer citizen-viewer is offline
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I don't think it's bowing -- I can eyeball it from the bottom up and it looks perfectly straight. Since it's a newer brick front (with those multicolored bricks, unfortunately) it appears to be acting as one rigid piece moving outward/downward.
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